Author Topic: Harddrive or Power Supply?  (Read 3219 times)

Offline ruel24

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2011, 03:05:10 PM »
For me, it's not the watts that I pay attention to. It's the amps on the +12V rails. Some power supplies have multiple +12V rails. The more amps in +12V, the better. The Corsair HX650 is a 650 watt PSU, and it delivers a full 52 amps on the +12V. That's pretty stout. Other 650 watt PSUs may not deliver the same output. For instance, a Diablotek 650 watt PSU only delivers 46 amps on the +12V rail. It's the +12V rail that's the most important.

Another thing I look for, is a minimum of 80 plus Bronze certification.

Offline horusfalcon

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2011, 05:42:11 PM »
How does one determine wattage ?

If I had a Pentium dual core 2.8 ghz
Two 500 gb HD's
A DVD-RW
A Radeon 5xxx class video card


The manufacturers usually publish specifications on how much energy their devices will use. You'll want to know how many watts each device uses under full load. Add up all the wattages and you have the total. When choosing the power supply, you should choose one with a higher output than the total wattage to compensate for under reporting wattages used on all your devices, as well as under reporting the actual capabilities of the power supply.


Ruel24 is exactly right because he's considering output power, but he's looking at in one way.  Just to illustrate, I'll use the numbers he gave as an example.

For output (and more generally, DC) power, Watt's Law states: P = I*E where P stands for power, I stands for current (intensity), and E stands for voltage (electromotive force), so if you have a 12vdc supply rail with 52 amps running through it, the output power is 12*52 or 624 Watts.  Hmm... I wonder what the other rails of that supply can deliver?  Either this Corsair HX650 is just beastly or the other rails are a bit anemic (without looking at the numbers I woudn't know).

These numbers will be generally correct for any modern switching supply, as ripple (AC component) riding on the DC rails is usually minimal.  (Of course, the cheaper you go, the less clean the output, generally.)

It is important to look at whether these numbers are for sustained or peak output, too.  This is where PC Power & Cooling really shines (but all things for a price!).

For AC current (input power), the equations get a bit more interesting, as the alternations in direction of the current flow give rise to reactive losses usually accounted for by a Power Factor which accounts for the total inductance/capacitance of the circuitry.  A power supply rated for 650W input power will almost certainly deliver a good deal less to the loads because some is lost in conversion.

DJohnston makes good points about how to budget for a system during build:  yeah, look up the specs for everything in the system and budget a little extra for upgrades (like extra drives you might want to add down the road) is a good way to go.  I usually build for 20% to 25% more than present need for desktops, and a bit more for workstations and servers (since they tend to have longer life-cycles and get upgraded more often).  With high-quality power supplies this is a good rule.  Any more, though, and you waste energy.

Well, you've done it again... wasted another hour with Hack and Slash, the Circuit Boyz. ;D

Later On,
D

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Offline weirdwolf

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2011, 08:43:21 PM »
I used this to get me into the ball park plus a bit more.
http://images10.newegg.com/BizIntell/tool/psucalc/index.html

gave me 269 W needed (using onboard graphics) and I bought a Antec VP450, gives me room for any extras I might want (not too likely) in the future.
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Offline ruel24

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2011, 07:42:56 AM »
Either this Corsair HX650 is just beastly or the other rails are a bit anemic (without looking at the numbers I woudn't know).

Here are the exact specs for the Corsair HX650:

+3.3V@24A, +5V@30A, +12V@52A, -12V@0.8A, +5VSB@3.0A

Offline Yankee

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2011, 01:54:28 PM »
How does one determine wattage ?

If I had a Pentium dual core 2.8 ghz
Two 500 gb HD's
A DVD-RW
A Radeon 5xxx class video card

The manufacturers usually publish specifications on how much energy their devices will use. You'll want to know how many watts each device uses under full load. Add up all the wattages and you have the total. When choosing the power supply, you should choose one with a higher output than the total wattage to compensate for under reporting wattages used on all your devices, as well as under reporting the actual capabilities of the power supply.

OK, here's what I'm thinking.   The video card needs 65 watts, so if I have 100 watts to
spare it should be OK.  But why does Radeon say that card needs 400 watts ?    I'm
thinking if there's 100 watts to spare and the card needs full power in a nanosecond that
video stream could distort if the power up to 65 watts takes a second or two.  If there's
300 or 400 watts to spare and a video stream needs full power in a nanosecond then
it will probably get it in a nanosecond with that much reserve capacity available then
in the power supply.

The power up time statistic seems what they need for a higher power card.

FF
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Offline horusfalcon

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2011, 06:31:57 PM »
Either this Corsair HX650 is just beastly or the other rails are a bit anemic (without looking at the numbers I woudn't know).


Here are the exact specs for the Corsair HX650:

+3.3V@24A, +5V@30A, +12V@52A, -12V@0.8A, +5VSB@3.0A




Hmm... so 79.2 W in +3.3V, 150 W in +5, 624 W in +12V, 9.6 W in -12V, 15 W in +5VSB, so a nominal 877 W, or do these specs reflect individual peak demand capabilities for each of the rails? (i.e., The supply may be rated for each of these outputs individually, but there may exist an over-arching collective limitation based on the capacity of the transformer or rectifiers used to produce the unfiltered power that is chopped up by the switching section to make these various voltages.)

Still, it looks like an impressive power supply.

Ferdes, I did some digging on the AMD site, and it looks like they are specifying a supply that can provide the needed power in specific voltages without doubt - there seems to be a good amount of power needed from special PCI-E support connectors (6- and 8-pin wattages seem to be in line with the peak power rating of the card as given in the general specs, plus a bit of overhead).  They are then specifying a total power output from the supply that should meet those needs under all conditions.  I'm sure there's some fudging going on to make sure the video card has everything it needs from any power supply certified to work with it... just some defensive specs, you know?  It really sounds as though your video card is one of the major system loads, right alongside the CPU. (The Pentium D processors can run well upward of 80 W peak demand...)

I don't get to play with that kind of high-wattage stuff regularly except on my 690 (dual Nvidia FX3500 SLI video, 4 DVI-I out total), but I can see having a little extra power to feed hungry video cards.  Lately, hard drives have become more economical in their power requirements, but these monster graphics engines are taking up all that slack and then some.

Do yourself a favor, and pay extra attention to your CPU cooling - make sure you have good coupling between the processor die and the sink's mating surfaces, and that the sink's fins and fan are up to removing a lot of heat.  Pentium D's can run kinda hot.

(In case I drew an incorrect conclusion about the type of processor, and you really have a Core2Duo, check this list out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CPU_power_dissipation.)

Later On,
D

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Offline djohnston

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2011, 04:15:48 PM »

The video card needs 65 watts, so if I have 100 watts to spare it should be OK.  But why does Radeon say that card needs 400 watts ?


I have no idea. Are you looking at two different sources of info? 400 watts for a video card is way too much. The point I was trying to make is that you should make allowance on the high side for your power supply. It's better to have slightly more power than you need than to not have enough to run all your devices. You may also want to make allowances for future additions of hard drives, etc.
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Offline T6

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2011, 05:59:43 PM »
400 is the recommended psu to have when using with a video card like that

the video card in the worst case will use 175 watts form it, the rest should be available for the hard disk, ram, cpu and mainboard between all the rest of the hardware you could have that uses lots of power

some nvidia video cards under heavy load will go up to 250 watts and that is why bigger psus are now almost the rule

it is not uncommon to see 750 or 1000 watts psus on some systems and that is with only one video card

just imagine the consumption with 3 nvidia cards...
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Offline MtnMan

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2011, 04:47:42 AM »
I see lots of good info here and worth reviewing for my next build.  The last 2 builds I used for guides a calculator like the one mentioned by weirdwolf, only slightly more power than needed, the highest number of 12v rails, and most importantly, I would not consider anything that did not have the 80 PLUS certification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS

Nothing but good things to say about 80 Plus and a must have for me.  The comfort of high efficiency, small fan, and no heat from wasted power just makes good sense to me.
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Offline Yankee

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2011, 01:07:22 PM »
Well I'm thinking if you have a new desktop machine with a 200 watt power supply
or even a 350 watt power supply don't put a high power video card in it.

Get a 400 watt or preferably a 500 watt power supply replacement and
then put your Radeon 5xxx class video card in it, or a similar Nvidia card in it
as an upgrade.   

My netbook does about 1300 megapixels/second and the cards I'm looking
at aren't super but do about 20,000 megapixels/second.   My hypothetical
system should be well served then with a 500 watt power supply.

If I had a Pentium dual core 2.8 ghz
Two 500 gb HD's
A DVD-RW
A Radeon 5xxx class video card
500 watt power supply

What more could you ask for ?
I think that would leave about 300 watts
for the video card to power up and work in.

Any luxuries I'm missing ?    I'm just a hobbyist
so I'm doing this without a tux.

Have a good one.

Patrick
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Offline rubentje1991

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2011, 01:26:10 PM »

If I had a Pentium dual core 2.8 ghz
Two 500 gb HD's
A DVD-RW
A Radeon 5xxx class video card
500 watt power supply

What more could you ask for ?


A pair of RAM sticks?  ;D (should be handy somewhere - hopefully with a good motherboard)
And if you can get a deal on a good SSD, that's also a big plus  :)
 :P

Offline Yankee

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2011, 01:54:10 PM »

If I had a Pentium dual core 2.8 ghz
Two 500 gb HD's
A DVD-RW
A Radeon 5xxx class video card
500 watt power supply

What more could you ask for ?


A pair of RAM sticks?  ;D (should be handy somewhere - hopefully with a good motherboard)
And if you can get a deal on a good SSD, that's also a big plus  :)
 :P

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Offline Neo

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2011, 10:13:23 PM »
Hi, It's the OP here, just thought I'd give you guys an update.

Well I haven't had anymore problems with suddenly losing power or not being able to access my HDD.

On the other hand I have had FF crash suddenly, without warning, several times since my last post.
The last time it happened was just a few minutes ago.

I doubt it's my CPU overheating as I was listening to online radio via VLC during the last crash and it was unaffected.

I am tempted to do a new, fresh install of PCLinuxOS and try my luck with that, but losing all of my current settings and tweaks would be a real pain in the A$$.

However since I am currently multibooting eight different distros and really only use PCLinux, I may sacrifice one of the other distros so that I can do a fresh install and gradually tweak it to my tastes.
If however FF crashes on the new install then I don't know what to do.
I love to say that I would pull out all of my hair but that ain't saying much these days.   ;D

EDIT:  By the way I thought that a power supply would only crank out as much power as is required of it, i.e. a 600 Watt PSU will not draw 600 Watts if only 400 is demanded of it - correct?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 10:15:18 PM by Neo »

Offline djohnston

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2011, 10:32:58 PM »

On the other hand I have had FF crash suddenly, without warning, several times since my last post.
The last time it happened was just a few minutes ago.


You can try creating a new account and logging in as that user to see if the problem persists. Often, Firefox addons will cause problems. You can try renaming the .mozilla folder in your home directory to see if that helps. If either of those cure the problem, change your renamed folder back to .mozilla, start Firefox and disable all addons. Then, try adding them back, one at a time.

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Offline weirdwolf

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Re: Harddrive or Power Supply?
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2011, 07:19:52 PM »
EDIT:  By the way I thought that a power supply would only crank out as much power as is required of it, i.e. a 600 Watt PSU will not draw 600 Watts if only 400 is demanded of it - correct?
correct
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 07:21:38 PM by weirdwolf »
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