2010 Upgrade Problems

[jakevoelcker]

So you want someone to recode an existing app for you?  That would be as much work as coding a new app and as invasive. I think you do not understand what you are asking for. Pop-up messages are invasive. Did you never use a pop-up blocker on your windows?   

First off, I'm really sorry if I've offended anyone, that wasn't my intention at all. I'm not criticising PCLOS, I love it, I've used it at work and at home for two or three years and can't praise it enough. I appreciate how much work goes into it and quite frankly I don't know how you guys manage it.

My original post was meant just as a suggestion because I have a hunch that there are a lot of users out there, the home users that PCLOS is targeting, who don't realise they're supposed to keep an eye on this website and the forum and Texstar's twitter every week. Then their systems get hopelessly out of date, and then when they do try and update, it breaks something. This is no way to attract new users to Linux or PCLOS.

I never mentioned pop-up messages. What I had in mind, as I've said above, was something along the lines of a Synaptic or update-notifier message. In the same way that it currently says "4 new updates and 13 new packages are available for your system" or "An error occurred verifying upgrade, this may be caused by held packages. Do Not update!", I thought it might be useful to say e.g. "For future updates to work you must install aptupgrade". How is this any more intrusive or invasive?

Otherwise, update-notifier just sits there telling you everything is up to date, when in fact it's not.

Please, please, please don't take this personally, it's not an attack on you or on PCLOS, it's just my observation about usability for the non-expert.

[johnmart]

Hi jakevoelker,
Don't worry you are safe. so far.   [joke]
I think new linux users are attracted to linux for a variety of reasons. FedUpWithMS, curiosity, etc.
But one of the first things most new users realise is that linux is not 100% about ease of use. A good percentage, yes, but a healthy segment of linux-use is about learning. And having an active role in your computer OS management. I think it safe to say that most linux users eventually love that aspect.

So people pretty quickly get used to the fact that you gotta learn some new habits, & you gotta pay attention.

And if worse comes to worst & you hose your system & have to "bite the bullet" & reinstall, if you have setup your system smart, you are out 20 minutes time, you are up & running. And you learned something.

And you think back to a similar scenario with MS. And you smile! Linux is good--PCLinuxOS is the best. 

[brencam]

OP  here - I see this thread has generated some interesting comments - so I'll just share my own feedback:

- I reinstalled PCLOS2011 on my HD, downloaded some apps and everything looks great - 2011 seems to have a lot of UI enhancements and is pretty snappy on my old laptop. (WiFi performance seems to be much improved - with my previous 2010 install my wifi link would drop 3/4 times a day at random times - new version seems solid - not one dropout).

- I have no issues re the upgrade process here - unfortunately (for me) I was away from PCLOS for a few months and was not aware of the issues I ran into - not sure what would have saved me - maybe some form of auto alert message when logging on after a long period of inactivity.

- Not sure if how my profile compares to PCLOS users - I'm an experienced software developer and work with many tools (including M$ and open source). Practically speaking I don't think it's reasonable to expect users to constantly check the PCLOS website once their initial setup stabilizes - what percentage of M$/windows users bother to check the Microsoft site once they are up and running. (I know that auto update does that for them, but that's a passive approach and the user does not have to initiate the update).

  - PCLOS is a very user friendly distro -  however one possible drawback/issue I have is that the use/installation of 3rd party/commercial apps is highly discouraged. (I use Python and there are a few Python development tools (Wing IDE, PyCharm etc) that help me with my projects - so maybe some guidelines (and disclaimers) re installing such apps could be published). - IMHO you should not discourage developers from using PCLOS - with some proper guidelines they can take responsibility for their actions).

 - I do use PCLOS (and Linux Mint) for some light development and they have both  provided  a great Linux learning experience. Support forums for both are excellent - I'm constantly amazed at what people are - willing providing for others for little or no financial reward.


My $0.02c
BrendanC

[Neal ManBear]

Who said we discourage developers from using PCLinuxOS? Huh? No one. We do discourage people from installing from outside sources, especially new users, as doing so will break your system, if not right away, then eventually. PCLinuxOS is a rolling release distro. Updates are provided on a continuous basis. Apps installed from outside will not be in the upgrade path. Problems will come up. The user will need to know how to deal with them.
It is a matter of choice whether the advice is followed or not.

Aside from Software Announcements and twitter for news, we have the magazine ---     
http://pclosmag.com/     
and the knowledge base (wiki) ---     
http://pclinuxoshelp.com/index.php/Main_Page     

There a great wealth of information there, if you are willing to do a little reading. If not, that's you, not us.     

Maybe MS users expect everything to be done for them. Their choice. Maybe they expect to never need to learn anything. Again, their choice. But as has been said before, "Linux is not windows." Expectations that it will be and work "just like windows" are bound to end in disappointment.     

[Hootiegibbon]

Regarding third party (ie non-repo) apps and commercial application

The first part has been covered by Neal, all apps need to be built with the rolling nature of PCLinuxOS in mind or breakage will ensue.

As for discouraging commercial apps.... not so long ago Texstar requested input into the possibility of having a "commercial applications" section within the repo or to have a commercial application repo in addition to  our own, he put this to the Community (it would have been a good potential way for Texstar to get some regular funding ), and he moved with the majority who saw the addition of the commercial apps as a bad thing ... (who knows why), so it was not the developers that said no to the inclusion of commercial apps - but a community based decision...

I think that when someone chooses to change operating system, it is up to that person to ensure they learn the basics, we very strongly advise of "best practice" with PCLinuxOS although it is up to the installer to administer their system (that is the 'feedom' of Linux )

As for a system notification system that advises of important events - this is not realistically possible without setting up an elaborate  additional messaging system , that most would see (and potentailly is ) a security whole big enough to park a bus in.

The nearest thing it this would be to set up an rss feed into an app although that is not smthing most people would like as a default ( I did take the liberty of setting up a forum rss-feed to newsbuter in Iced-Latte but not sure what folks thoughts were on that (but still requires folks to read the content.....)

Jase

[brencam]

While I understand the need and desire to control the PCLOS distro I'll just add that the limitation re non repo apps was not something I became aware of until I had been using PCLOS for over a 6 months.

I agree that most users can get by with the apps in the repo - however once in a while there is a need to  reach beyond the repo. (Can you imagine if Adobe suddenly release a version of Photoshop for Linux - I know it's not going to happen<g>   - just a thought).

I strongly suspect that most new Linux users do not fully appreciate the restrictions of a rolling repo based distro like PCLOS wrt non repo apps. In the event that I choose to 'break the rules' by installing a 3rd party app, I'll take responsibility for my actions with the understanding that I may need to do a reinstall if I break things.

BrendanC

[Neal ManBear]

While I understand the need and desire to control the PCLOS distro I'll just add that the limitation re non repo apps was not something I became aware of until I had been using PCLOS for over a 6 months.

I agree that most users can get by with the apps in the repo - however once in a while there is a need to  reach beyond the repo. (Can you imagine if Adobe suddenly release a version of Photoshop for Linux - I know it's not going to happen<g>   - just a thought).

     
So long as it is redistributable, it can be added to the repos. We have the Package Suggest section of the forum specifically for requesting new or updated apps. Be sure to read and follow the rules for doing so that are posted as a sticky topic in that section.

[Old-Polack]

I agree that most users can get by with the apps in the repo - however once in a while there is a need to  reach beyond the repo. (Can you imagine if Adobe suddenly release a version of Photoshop for Linux - I know it's not going to happen<g>   - just a thought).

If Adobe suddenly released a version of Photoshop for Linux, it would make not a bit of difference to most of us. I have yet to find anything I can do in Photoshop that I can't do with Gimp, or a combination of Gimp and other Linux native apps that already exist. The method used might not be exactly the same, but the desired outcome would.

[brencam]

@oldpolak -
FYI -  I know it's off topic and not important to most people - however I have to gently disagree re gimp since (AFAIK) it does not handle 16 bit operations.

So image manipulation conversions are rounded to 8 bits - with (in some cases) serious image degradation and a loss in tonal range. You can see the effect of this in histograms where you start to see the 'piano key' effect.

FWIW PS Elements is has the same 8 bit limitation - Adobe wants serious money for the full version of PS and 16 bit operations is one of the main reasons they get it from professional photographers.

BrendanC

[pags]

@oldpolak -
FYI -  I know it's off topic and not important to most people - however I have to gently disagree re gimp since (AFAIK) it does not handle 16 bit operations.

So image manipulation conversions are rounded to 8 bits - with (in some cases) serious image degradation and a loss in tonal range. You can see the effect of this in histograms where you start to see the 'piano key' effect.

FWIW PS Elements is has the same 8 bit limitation - Adobe wants serious money for the full version of PS and 16 bit operations is one of the main reasons they get it from professional photographers.

BrendanC

There are 16-bit capable editors for Linux (and, in our repos).  Digikam's own editor will handle 16-bit.

There are limitations on Photoshop's 16-bit implementation (as I recall...it's been a long time, and I don't follow the current development too closely).  Not all tools function in 16-bit.

Therefore, a combination of Linux apps is still a valid substitute.  16-bit is a non-issue.

One thing I would "like" (but do not "require") might be "Adjustment Layers" (Paint Shop Pro had/has them as well).  I think that would be a better (earlier) addition to Gimp then 16-bit editing, at this point in time...

[Old-Polack]

brencam:

Newmikey did a good job of posting about Photoshop replacement with Linux native apps here.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,97278.msg823618.html#msg823618

Rather than rewrite all the observations about the Linux philosophy of many apps, each doing one thing well, and how that applies here, you might want to read the entire thread. As pags said, 16 bit is a non issue, mostly used by Windows users with no real experience with Linux apps, as an argument for why they can't switch to Linux because of it's lack of Photoshop.

For those that truly feel they can't get by without Photoshop, it can be run in wine, or a VirtualBox Windows VM.

[Scotchman]

Regarding the OP -

So, is there a way to fix a 2010 installation? I have 6 kids computers that did not get online much and are all broke but highly customized for class use. Starting from scratch on 6 pcs would be ... well!

Is there a manual set of steps that I could do to fix the problem? Right now I just get

rpmlib (PayLoadIsLzma)<=4.4.6.1. - rpmlib not installable

So the problem is that we have an old version of librpm but need to the version of librpm 4.8 to even upgrade that!

Correct? If someone could pint me to the file/s and steps needed to fix this on the kids computers. And NOW that I understand the situation I can make preparations to run updates but need to save these installs very badly.

PLEASE!

[JohnW_57]

Regarding the OP -

So, is there a way to fix a 2010 installation? I have 6 kids computers that did not get online much and are all broke but highly customized for class use. Starting from scratch on 6 pcs would be ... well!

Is there a manual set of steps that I could do to fix the problem? Right now I just get

rpmlib (PayLoadIsLzma)<=4.4.6.1. - rpmlib not installable

So the problem is that we have an old version of librpm but need to the version of librpm 4.8 to even upgrade that!

Correct? If someone could pint me to the file/s and steps needed to fix this on the kids computers. And NOW that I understand the situation I can make preparations to run updates but need to save these installs very badly.

PLEASE!

Maybe helps this: http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,103817.0.html
But installing from the latest  PCLinuxOS 2012.0x isos is less work I think.

JohnW

[aguila]

What are those customizations you are talking about? Maybe you can install new on one box, make a remaster and install the remaster on the other five?

[Neal ManBear]

Scotchman,     
The way to prevent such a situation is to keep the system up to date -- do regular updates at least every 14 days. Follow announcements in Software Announcents and in General News and Announcements sections of this forum --- watch for instructions on changes you need to make.     

2010 is too old to update to the present. Install from the latest 2012 ISO.