Re: Split from: MyLiveCD Guide

[melodie]

Hi hasmak,

I also think if you think it's worth while discussing you can go on. I don't despise discussion.

For backing up, I advices newbies to get an external usb drive and use mc to copy to it, or setup a sync method for them and show them the gsync gui. Preferably, the external hard drive will be formatted to a Linux file system, so that the attributes will be saved. The remaster method does not seem to me the method for newbies. The newbies I know generally don't have any idea what "a remaster" can be, what is it's use, and so on...

You may have noticed also that the process of compressing the files does take resource from the cpu. I always hear the machines I use blow a lot while remastering, so I would also generally avoid making big remasters (I have a Pentium 4, with Hyperthreading that I often use for this, a more recent laptop with a dual-core, I also used a Nec M160 with a Celeron 1.46 Ghz, this is not very powerful but the machine was doing good remasters and at that time I didn't have the dual-core... )

[hasmak]

Melodie
I agree that remastering is not for everyone, it is much easier to backup data to a usb HDD or even save then on a CD or DVD.
However, if you and anyone else is interested in making remastering easier for anyone who wishes to do it, then we can try to find a way to do that.
One major advantage of remastering is that after spending many days or months of customizing your system, if something goes wrong (and inevitably it does) or if you want to migrate your system to another machine, you don't have to start from scratch and install a new system.
Remastering and data backup are 2 different things, one should not remaster to backup his data, and data backup can not restore a broken system, every user should be able to do both.
Cheers

[Just17]

I agree with hasmak ..... maybe it is an age thing, who knows? ......  but to be capable of creating an ISO of 9GB or more would be advantageous to some, IMO.

The limiting factor is the file size contained within the ISO.

Musings:


There are at least two ways of removing that limitation in practice ......  change the limit in the ISO or break large files into smaller ones. Not going near the ISO spec .....  
There may be other means also ....

In the case of building a live OS environment, I would think it possible to arrange to mount the various parts or the files system from different files.

Because of the complexity and other possible side effects, I would think this method would not be the most suitable for general use .....  but if it could be developed it would make specialised requirements must easier.

Another idea which might be even more suitable ...... for those specialised situations ....  generate a liveUSB without any size limitations like CDs or DVDs ----  a 30GB live OS on a 32GB flash stick anyone? ...  no compression needed at all.
Maybe a 'full install' to a USB flash stick, with those items set to do hardware detection on boot and other such things as in a live OS. Dunno if this would be very suitable.

All of that brings me full circle ......  and generates the question .....  is there not a more suitable and practical method of getting a large mobile live OS already in existence, that does not need to come up against the problem of the file size limitation?

.....  maybe the cat is already dead and there is no need to avoid scratches when skinning the beast!  

[melodie]

In the case of building a live OS environment, I would think it possible to arrange to mount the various parts or the files system from different files.

Because of the complexity and other possible side effects, I would think this method would not be the most suitable for general use .....  but if it could be developed it would make specialised requirements must easier.

Hi,

If you get after this, I think there is a good chance that some time in the future something new will appear. Do you think that something between Clonezilla and mylivecd could be created ? Clonezilla does disk images under the shape of files, but theses images are not bootable as they are with mylivecd, nor (as far as I know) can they be used to install to another machine. On the other hand, they are not limited in size. I had done a 15 GB backup out of hum... about 50 GB datas. Therefore it is compressed as well.

[hasmak]

I agree with hasmak ..... maybe it is an age thing, who knows? ......  but to be capable of creating an ISO of 9GB or more would be advantageous to some, IMO.

The limiting factor is the file size contained within the ISO.

Musings:


There are at least two ways of removing that limitation in practice ......  change the limit in the ISO or break large files into smaller ones. Not going near the ISO spec .....  
There may be other means also ....

In the case of building a live OS environment, I would think it possible to arrange to mount the various parts or the files system from different files.

Because of the complexity and other possible side effects, I would think this method would not be the most suitable for general use .....  but if it could be developed it would make specialised requirements must easier.

Another idea which might be even more suitable ...... for those specialised situations ....  generate a liveUSB without any size limitations like CDs or DVDs ----  a 30GB live OS on a 32GB flash stick anyone? ...  no compression needed at all.
Maybe a 'full install' to a USB flash stick, with those items set to do hardware detection on boot and other such things as in a live OS. Dunno if this would be very suitable.

All of that brings me full circle ......  and generates the question .....  is there not a more suitable and practical method of getting a large mobile live OS already in existence, that does not need to come up against the problem of the file size limitation?

.....  maybe the cat is already dead and there is no need to avoid scratches when skinning the beast!  

Hi just19
welcome to the discussion
First let me tell you that the cat is not dead  
But first things first, the file size limitation of 4GB is set in the ISO file system specifications, that means you can not write a single file larger than 4GB to an optical disk or disk image, hence the need to split the .sqfs file.
Melodie has mentioned clonezilla (or similar applications) I don't think this will work, disk imaging tools usually do a sector by sector backup, that can not be deflated to ram as file system with directories and files, it can only be written back to a disk.
It seem to me that there might be an easier track, mylivecd uses one 3 different compression and archiving applications to produce the .sqfs file, most compression applications can be configured to split the archive at a preset limit, and when you are unpacking the archive you only call on the first part which will call all the other chunks in sequence.
If we can get mylivecd to pass the spliting parameters to the archiving applications then that is half the work done, the other half is examine what happens at boot time, how is the archive unpacked, and what parameters need to be passed if any.

The idea of having mylivecd build a bootable usb device is brilliant and should be considered, however there are 2 downsides, 1- not all machines can boot from usb, and 2 mylivecd was not written with that in mind and may need a complete rewrite. also there are already other tools to do that, I haven't tried that because my current machines do not support it.
Let me know what you think
cheers
PS
I might be out for a while, will try to get back to u ASAP
cheers again

[melodie]

Hi,

I mentioned Clonezilla because something in what Just19 said made me think of it, and because I think if Just19 thinks he might get ideas from that program, he is very capable of going to have a look at the code source to eventually get pieces of code from there, or even to other programs used for identical purposes he might know of. When you deal with a developer, you can never know what magic he might be producing.

PS: if you have machines that don't  boot to USB, would you mind trying to boot one with the help of a floppy disk ? I know about one image for floppy that contains plop boot manager (a tool that is supposed to make usb boot on machines that can't... ) and other tools such as that one.

[Just17]

mylivecd creates an ISO ......  what you use that ISO for afterwards does not concern it .....  so the ISO can be used on any bootable media that it will fit on .......  CD, DVD, USB etc.

You seem to have misunderstood my post.

Put more simply .....  for 'special' circumstances why use mylivecd at all?

If the FS did not need to be compressed .....  as it would not if using such as USB .....  then why not store the OS uncompressed? ...  should be faster to run as no decompresion 'on the fly' would be required?

Before looking for solutions maybe the exact problem should be defined .....  and presently it seems that the problem is the size of OS that can be put into one compressed file when using mylivecd to generate the ISO.

If that scheme is not used then then problem does not exist = the cat is dead

regards

[melodie]

Just19, I can't talk for others, but I noticed several times that some members more or less beginners often wish to make a bootable iso out of their system, whatever the size can be.

Of course, nowadays if you can have for an affordable price an external hard drive of at least 1 To, then why not fancy making a bootable iso out of a 375 GB install, if there is a technical method allowing it ? The advantage of the isos we get with mylivecd is mostly the ability to detect the hardware.

On another distribution I used to boot to, I had successfully cloned my system to another machine just with a simple "cp -Ra" to a remote machine, through a mounted partition. This was working, as long as I had not compiled too many programs specifically for the cpu of the machine source. (And I had to tweak a bit once done, to change the graphic driver in xorg.conf, and install manually grub)

With PCLinuxOS I doubt this could be possible (I think I might have tried that, long ago... :p )

Back to the USB hard drives : if a machine cannot be booted from USB at all, be it with a bootstrap system, there is no point in using a solution such as this one. This solution could be interesting because more and more machines seem capable of booting from USB, precisely.

  

[Just17]

Just19, I can't talk for others, but I noticed several times that some members more or less beginners often wish to make a bootable iso out of their system, whatever the size can be.

Yes that is what I was speaking about

Of course, nowadays if you can have for an affordable price an external hard drive of at least 1 To, then why not fancy making a bootable iso out of a 375 GB install, if there is a technical method allowing it ? The advantage of the isos we get with mylivecd is mostly the ability to detect the hardware.

Not just HW detect, but also the ability to compress the FS so it fits on a DVD.

On another distribution I used to boot to, I had successfully cloned my system to another machine just with a simple "cp -Ra" to a remote machine, through a mounted partition. This was working, as long as I had not compiled too many programs specifically for the cpu of the machine source. (And I had to tweak a bit once done, to change the graphic driver in xorg.conf, and install manually grub)

With PCLinuxOS I doubt this could be possible (I think I might have tried that, long ago... :p )

I do not know why not .....  if the user has not installed outside packages .....  with the addition of the HW detect and other features -- which I mentioned in an earlier post.

Back to the USB hard drives : if a machine cannot be booted from USB at all, be it with a bootstrap system, there is no point in using a solution such as this one. This solution could be interesting because more and more machines seem capable of booting from USB, precisely.

Yes ...  almost all machines made in the last 6 years or so can boot from a USB device.

Soon it will be common to have USB 3.0 connections, which will allow even faster data transfer and thus quicker boot and operation of the OS.

I believe it is time to look forward when considering new schemes/methods of doing things.
Retain the older methods for those on legacy hardware, but do not hold back those on better PCs.

We need to recognise that USB drives are cheap (per MB) and all new PCs can use them to boot the OS.
So compression is not as important as it once was .....  for CDs & DVDs which have physical limits.

regards.

[MtnMan]

TBercaht started out with the goal of creating a step-by=step guide to MyLiveCD and I was hoping that it would come to fruition (easy enough that a monkey could do it) as the expression goes.  Much needed for us beginners.

Just19, I can't talk for others, but I noticed several times that some members more or less beginners often wish to make a bootable iso out of their system, whatever the size can be.

Yes that is what I was speaking about

Of course, nowadays if you can have for an affordable price an external hard drive of at least 1 To, then why not fancy making a bootable iso out of a 375 GB install, if there is a technical method allowing it ? The advantage of the isos we get with mylivecd is mostly the ability to detect the hardware.

Not just HW detect, but also the ability to compress the FS so it fits on a DVD.

On another distribution I used to boot to, I had successfully cloned my system to another machine just with a simple "cp -Ra" to a remote machine, through a mounted partition. This was working, as long as I had not compiled too many programs specifically for the cpu of the machine source. (And I had to tweak a bit once done, to change the graphic driver in xorg.conf, and install manually grub)

With PCLinuxOS I doubt this could be possible (I think I might have tried that, long ago... :p )

I do not know why not .....  if the user has not installed outside packages .....  with the addition of the HW detect and other features -- which I mentioned in an earlier post.

Back to the USB hard drives : if a machine cannot be booted from USB at all, be it with a bootstrap system, there is no point in using a solution such as this one. This solution could be interesting because more and more machines seem capable of booting from USB, precisely.

Yes ...  almost all machines made in the last 6 years or so can boot from a USB device.

Soon it will be common to have USB 3.0 connections, which will allow even faster data transfer and thus quicker boot and operation of the OS.

I believe it is time to look forward when considering new schemes/methods of doing things.
Retain the older methods for those on legacy hardware, but do not hold back those on better PCs.

We need to recognise that USB drives are cheap (per MB) and all new PCs can use them to boot the OS.
So compression is not as important as it once was .....  for CDs & DVDs which have physical limits.

regards.

I so like the way you think - if you can make it happen - can we have both?

[Just17]

Maybe a mod would consider forking off the posts that are off the main topic, into a thread of their own?

[hasmak]

mylivecd creates an ISO ......  what you use that ISO for afterwards does not concern it .....  so the ISO can be used on any bootable media that it will fit on .......  CD, DVD, USB etc.

You seem to have misunderstood my post.

Just19
I did misunderstand, sorry
I never attempted a usb boot or install, and I thought that you needed a filesystem and directory tree on the usb
Can you give me a quick summary of what needs to be on the usb?

If that scheme is not used then then problem does not exist = the cat is dead

regards

That is thinking outside the box  
OK, let us define the problem: How to remaster, boot a live system and be able to install a  system of any size?
Would you say this is a fair definition of what we are talking about?

[melodie]

That is thinking outside the box  
OK, let us define the problem: How to remaster, boot a live system and be able to install a  system of any size?
Would you say this is a fair definition of what we are talking about?

If the cat is inside the box, it can be dead, or alive, but unless you open the box you can't know that. On the other hand if the cat is inside the box, you can't skin it.

Questions have to be asked and answered one by one:

1) How to remaster ?
Have you read here ? → 2010 Remastering - http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,74418.0.html

2) How to boot a live system ? // I think you forgot an intermediate question, which should be how to create a bootable media, whatever it can be

3) Be able to install a system of any size? // now I enter into hypothesis, because I used only CD's and USB sticks. Actually cloning tools do exist, I don't know them. I can only say : have a partition always larger than the datas you want to put in...

[hasmak]

Hi,

PS: if you have machines that don't  boot to USB, would you mind trying to boot one with the help of a floppy disk ? I know about one image for floppy that contains plop boot manager (a tool that is supposed to make usb boot on machines that can't... ) and other tools such as that one.

Melodie
Can you let me know where to get the floopy image, and is there CD image that can do the same?
I have an old desktop with floppy drive (don't know if it still works) and I would be willing to test that
Cheers

[Neal ManBear]

Maybe a mod would consider forking off the posts that are off the main topic, into a thread of their own?

Done.