Author Topic: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install  (Read 8085 times)

Offline Was_Just19

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HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« on: March 11, 2011, 05:22:38 PM »
Poorman's Install

Short Explanation:
                                  This is a live install of PCLinuxOS on a partition of a HDD, done in a similar manner to that used for a flash stick. When installed properly, it can be used as an emergency OS if something prevents the main OS from booting. It can also be used to allow an untrusted person use your PC temporarily. You get the idea.


I have been working on a small script to facilitate a user do this installation.
The new script would be a 'companion' to the LiveUSB Creator script which is presently in the repository. It, hopefully, will be the second of a trio of such scripts, the third one is still in the planning stage.

Unfortunately it seems that there are so many different methods of normal installation and boot manager configurations that it may not be possible to do all I would like with the script without it becoming way too nagging. We'll see how it comes out.


Ideally, IMO, there should be one version of the boot manager (in our case Grub Legacy) which is a stand-alone installation, and is thus not subject to the vagaries of an OS for its continued operation. True, if the OS gets borked there may be nothing to boot, but if grub is independent then at least it will function which will allow it to boot the poormans live install if present.

Again in an ideal situation, this stand-alone version of Grub would reside on its own partition, and that partition would equally be placed first on the HDD ….  or at least immediately after the first Windows partition if one should exist. Doing this means the partition is unlikely to be interfered with by any subsequent repartitioning.

Yes I recognise we do not live in an ideal world, but for those who might have the opportunity, I certainly recommend that such a partition should be in place. The size of that partition is determined by what you would intend to place in it. If it was only for grub itself then a couple of MBs is enough. If you want to also include a live OS then it would need to be big enough to hold the OS file, and then if you wanted persistence it would need to be bigger again.

I hope the above gives some idea of the approach I presently intend to take with this script.

I hope it will have the following features ….

Give the user a list of drives in the PC, to select one
Then give the user a list of partitions on that selected drive to select the location of the poormans install.
Grub should also be installed to the same partition if it does not already exist.
Grub will be written to the boot sector of that partition, and will then include a boot option for the poormans OS.

If the selected partition does not contain the Grub that is controlling booting, it will be necessary to add a boot stanza to call the poormans grub when required. This is not an ideal situation, but is likely the best compromise. Adding a simple new entry to the menu.lst file of the controlling Grub will allow the poormans OS to be bootable at start up. This MAY be possible from within the script, but it has to be tested first to see how much hassle it might cause for those not needing the facility. Again it will be a compromise I think.

The situation presently is that various subsections of the script are being tested to try to ensure there are no unexpected events.
After that, if and when all sections are working they will be stitched together to make the script, and then it will need to be tested as a complete entity.

After some time testing and bug fixing, it should be in a state to be released into the testing section of the repository. How this is done has not yet been decided. I may decide to include it as a second part of the present LiveUSB Creator, so that installing that package gives you both the live installer for removable devices and also for fixed drives. The jury is out on that one.


If I think of anything further to add to this post I will come back and do so.

In the meantime I am inviting comments and suggestions for what you would like to get from this, and if those suggestions are relevant to the purpose of the script, and – more importantly – are possible to do, then I will endeavour to include them.

As well as getting feedback from potential users, the other purpose of this thread is to try to keep me focussed on this. I had started it many months ago and got sidelined and distracted, forgetting about my intentions.

Hopefully that can now change and in a month or less we might have something to test that is close to complete.

Over to you folks …....  what have ye to say …..  or ask ….?

Is it even worth the effort?

Offline Village Idiot

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 07:54:16 PM »
Ok, we can certainly nag you every day if you want us to.  ;)

Seriously, I like the idea and you are right on.. the installer needs to be simple and reliable rather than trying to be many things to many people.

However, regarding Grub, I'd only wish for not only the user being given the choice of whether to install grub or not, but if the user chooses not to install Grub, then the installer should at least print out the essential booting bits that you are going to need to add to an existing menu.lst file.

This is preferred rather than worrying if an autocratic installer will zap the mbr without good reason or consent.

jmo.

Enjoy hacking!  :)

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Offline Was_Just19

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2011, 03:31:11 AM »
Thanks for the response ......  and yes this post gave me today's reminder to do a little work on the project ;D

The idea of producing a boot stanza in a window for the user to copy to their 'controlling menu.lst' with some instructions, is an option that is being considered if it cannot be done reliably within the script.

Hopefully it will not come to that, and it will be possible to do it within the script.

Do keep the ideas coming ...... what might suit my methods is not necessarily what most others would prefer, so it is best if I get some ideas now rather than later.

regards.

Offline menotu

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2011, 07:20:02 AM »
Wonderful idea! - more power to your elbow Just19.

When it's ready (and I know that won't be for a while)  I'll be happy to test it if you'd find it helpful.

I can see lots of permutations for you to consider, good luck.

Just think - a Poorman's install of a Rich OS  ;)
PCLinuxOS 32bit KDE 4.10.1; kernel-3.4.11-pclos1.bfs & 64bit 3.2.18bfs; NVidia GeForce 8400GS 1GB 310.19 driver

Sony Vaio SVE1513A4ESI Laptop, Intel Core i5, 2.6GHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB, 15.6" Intel HD Graphics 4000

Offline Was_Just19

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2011, 07:35:28 AM »
Thanks menotu .......  yes I will need some testers to give feedback - in due time as you said - so the offer is appreciated  :)

The testing of course should be done on a system which one can afford to break  ;D

We'll see how it goes.

regards.

Offline menotu

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2011, 10:11:48 AM »
Quote
The testing of course should be done on a system which one can afford to break   ;D

Oh, I see, so your not couriering new AMD Phenom II X6 boxes for us all to do some "independent" testing on?   ;D  ;D

Darn it!!  I'll just have to soldier on......... ;)
PCLinuxOS 32bit KDE 4.10.1; kernel-3.4.11-pclos1.bfs & 64bit 3.2.18bfs; NVidia GeForce 8400GS 1GB 310.19 driver

Sony Vaio SVE1513A4ESI Laptop, Intel Core i5, 2.6GHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB, 15.6" Intel HD Graphics 4000

Offline Was_Just19

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2011, 10:46:56 AM »
I could send a couple of P3 boxes .....   :P

Spent some time at it today .....  some progress made ....  but it is a start ;D

Remind me every day and it might get done quickly  ;D  ;D

...  still trying to sort out how best to deal with the bootloader issues.

Will leave it for now ...  and mull over the Grub issues   ;)

Offline Village Idiot

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 04:01:30 PM »
Is it ready yet?


  :P  ;D
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Offline Was_Just19

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 05:10:09 PM »
Is it ready yet?


  :P  ;D

;D  ;D

Yes, but I am keeping it under wraps until there is sufficient interest       :P

Offline wedgetail

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 05:40:21 AM »
I will certainly be keeping an eye on this topic.

Quote
This is a live install of PCLinuxOS on a partition of a HDD, done in a similar manner ...

This somehow gives me the impression that all my other PCLOS installs are dead or something, but they are very live to me when I boot into them   ;D ??? ;D

32 bit: KDE (older) & various KDE-mini, ASUSTek P5P41D Rev X.0x, BIOS AMI0207 07/21/2009, "Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5300 @ 2.60GHz", nVidia GeForce 9600 GT, 2x1GB Seagate Technology 1000528AS HDD
TV CompuPro VideoMate Vista E700 (not working in Linux), Acer X243HD LCD Screen

Offline Was_Just19

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2011, 06:40:24 AM »
I will certainly be keeping an eye on this topic.

Quote
This is a live install of PCLinuxOS on a partition of a HDD, done in a similar manner ...

This somehow gives me the impression that all my other PCLOS installs are dead or something, but they are very live to me when I boot into them   ;D ??? ;D



Suggestions about what it should be called are welcome  ;)

We have LiveCDs, LiveUSBs and this is LiveHDD install.

I know of no other means of distinguishing such an 'install' from a standard install.

All I can say is that this thread is, amongst other things, a means of making suggestions, so if anything occurs to you, please post it.  ;D

Thanks for taking an interest  ;)


regards.

Offline wedgetail

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 06:33:55 AM »
It is a hard question, especially as I don't really understand operation of a LiveCD.  ;D

1.. I understand that compression is involved, to squeeze as much as possible on to a CD, one name stand out to me here, a zip file -->  zipOS

CDzipOS
USBzipOS
HDDzipOS

2.. Another feature as I understand, the OS runs totally in RAM --> RAMOS

CDRAMOS
USBRAMOS
HDDRAMOS

..
..
? :D
32 bit: KDE (older) & various KDE-mini, ASUSTek P5P41D Rev X.0x, BIOS AMI0207 07/21/2009, "Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5300 @ 2.60GHz", nVidia GeForce 9600 GT, 2x1GB Seagate Technology 1000528AS HDD
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Offline Was_Just19

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2011, 08:30:33 AM »
It is a hard question, especially as I don't really understand operation of a LiveCD.  ;D

1.. I understand that compression is involved, to squeeze as much as possible on to a CD, one name stand out to me here, a zip file -->  zipOS

CDzipOS
USBzipOS
HDDzipOS

Compressions is used but it is not Zip compression.


Quote
2.. Another feature as I understand, the OS runs totally in RAM --> RAMOS

CDRAMOS
USBRAMOS
HDDRAMOS

..
..
? :D


Also as the OS is not produced especially for different media, the use of the OS in the name is confusing, --  it would imply that it was a specific release for that media.


The OS is not loaded into ram by default. Those parts of the OS that are required are brought into ram as needed.

It could all be loaded into ram and everything work from there.

That is a boot option for those who have sufficient ram to contain the 700 MBs of OS (or the 4GB of a remaster) as well as sufficient ram to run whatever appications they chose once running.

As I see it, from way back, a 'live' OS is understood to be an OS that runs without installation and all that entails.

LiveCD has been the name by which this has been known for many years.
That can not now be changed.
It is the name by which all distros know it.

A similar situation pertains to LiveUSB.

So if you wish to put a live OS on one of those then that is what you search for ....  LiveCD or LiveUSB.

In this case where the receiving media is a HDD, there seems no other logical option other than to refer to it as a LiveHDD or as it was known for many years 'a poorman's' install. I never liked that name and tend to avoid it unless explaining what I mean.

I am open to persuasion otherwise .....  but those are the thoughts presently.  ;)

regards.

Offline PcPrisoner

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2011, 05:09:36 PM »
I had issues with fstab,  a few lines to setup a /tmp ramdisk, I had to edit the part of rc.sysinit from the initrd.img that sets up fstab because it necessarily ignores the fstab in changes. Others with SSD's and other particular preferences like labeled flash drives might find that of use.

And there was some line, like keyboard=yes I changed to keyboard=no so I stopped getting the select-keyboard language nag screen on login.

Offline Was_Just19

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Re: HDD Live Install ...... Poorman's Install
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2011, 07:45:32 PM »
I had issues with fstab,  a few lines to setup a /tmp ramdisk, I had to edit the part of rc.sysinit from the initrd.img that sets up fstab because it necessarily ignores the fstab in changes. Others with SSD's and other particular preferences like labeled flash drives might find that of use.

And there was some line, like keyboard=yes I changed to keyboard=no so I stopped getting the select-keyboard language nag screen on login.

Do you recall which file that keyboard setting is in?