Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows

[T6]

"Everyone of us was a newbie once"

speak for yourself!  i am still a newbie, but honestly basically a nooooob!

[kjpetrie]

When Windows updates it tends to go in chronological order, which is why it takes so long and needs so many reboots if you start a long way back. The plus side is that it tends to be upgrading from a known position all the time. Also, it doesn't upgrade applications, just the core OS. If you want to upgrade applications, that's a separate process, so it's less complicated.

Synaptic can't do that, because only the current state of the repo is available and any intermediate steps which cause problems if missed are no longer possible. Which means things tend to break if either the user decides to upgrade after leaving things untouched for a year - anything over about three months, usually, or if the developers have left something untouched for too long so an upgrade to present is too big a step. Last time that happened it was freezing the repo while concentrating on a new livecd. This time I believe it's a big jump in kernel version and other packages that were held back by the kernel. The kernel was held back by the toolchain which ironically got upgraded fairly smoothly.

Ordinary users can't be expected to know what to do when things break - even running from a livecd so they can get on line and ask questions is likely to require an understanding they might not have grasped, especially if someone else installed the system, which ordinary users wouldn't do. (They see the computer as a single item and just use whatever comes with it.)

So yes, there is a problem. Package management needs to get just a little better at resolving the unexpected conflicts so it knows how to get over those big jumps without the need for human intervention, perhaps it needs the equivalent of a forum where it can consult peers for advice about what broke and how and then when a successful path is found to let all other package managers know what worked. It could be done, but it wouldn't be easy. It would need heuristic learning techniques. And the 'forum' would have to be proof against malicious attacks.

What most people want when things go wrong is someone to sort it out. They might be prepared to pay but they don't want to wade through things they don't understand and don't want to know just to get a tool they depend on working again.

[Bald Brick]

Any system tweaks that are user created will be stored in /home/<user>

Not really.

System tweaks that are specific to the setup of a particular user are of course stored in that user's home directory (a.k.a. /home/<user>) but most systemwide configuration files are still to be found somewhere under /etc regardless of who has created them, and a fresh install will overwrite them.

It's possible that many users nowadays don't need to edit any systemwide configuration files. Nevertheless some of us have hardware that won't work if quite a number of files under /etc aren't edited. Unfortunately it will take some time before I remember which ones.

As to having /usr on a partition of its own: that won't do much good when you reinstall the whole system. Almost all applications and most libraries and, for instance, many fonts are are installed under /usr. (And so are some configuration files that really belong under /etc.)

[OldJimbo]

It seems that they all think that the updating/upgrading is easy.

I hope that while I pointed out the difficulties of upgrading Windows, I wasn't suggesting that Linux is perfect. I'm amazed at how well I did with this distro with "testing" enabled, but I got bitten in the end. Of course I did.
After writing my replies, I listened to some "TWIT" podcasts and heard people having totally different problems with upgrading and updating.
I figure updates, upgrades (especially business software) and snakes have much in common. Experience and good practice avoid the worst, but if you are not apprehensive then you simply haven't met the right situation yet.
The good points here are that:
1. You will have made a recent liveCD (DVD) and of course have tested that it actually works because that is as simple as putting it into a drive. Back in the day, backups were on LOTs of floppy disks or a tape drive. And the only way of testing was to reinstall onto a very expensive hard drive. So often backups weren't tested until too late. Once you've reinstalled and failed, you've overwritten vital data.
2. Home is on its own partition!
Now imagine yourself next to a defunct business computer. But you have made an image which is on an external drive. So do you re-install the computer drive? In these days of cheap drives, there's no real problem. But there was once. I've spent more than one night recovering data onto my own reformatted drive before doing a re-install from a tape drive. Failure to get the business server up by morning  was a loss of lots of loot for my friends.

So forgive me if I gave the wrong impression: I figure all upgrades are hard.

[taelti]

Hello Russell,

While your post do make make sound arguments, I would have to disagree with you. But first let me get my understanding right. A clean install of PCLinuxOS versus that of a clean install of whatever Windows version? One, everything one (average user) would need to install would all be in a single repository. Misplaced CD with critical Windows driver? How about a Microsoft Office CD and a user couldn't get the serial number typed in properly?

I do feel for those who falls into issues with PCLinuxOS. Perhaps the latest hardware that any Linux distro might not have a driver for it (nVidia comes to mind a lot). Or selective updates?

I guess I am luckier than many that I didn't have any major issues with PCLinuxOS. I guess what I am saying is each of our mile may vary (YMMV) so we PCLOS works great on some users and their hardware and at the same time it may be a big hassle to some and theirs.

Our devs do not have all those hardware to test the distro and ensure that they would work. It'll be a lot of money for them, and they are doing development out of their own good hearts.

As for user preferences and settings, it has been mentioned numerous time that if you have a separate /home, it is only a matter of reinstalling the appropriate apps and one should retain their settings as if it didn't change at all. For my example, I will back up only KMail, Firefox, Akregator, Superkaramba, VirtualBox among others and I don't think that would be too hard. Besides, a backup is always a wise thing to do.

My two cents.

Archie

Hear! Hear! Hear!

I have a separate /home. So I really look forward to completely replacing my current kde 3. I have been reluctant to shift to kde 4 for lack of a simple backup plan incase something went wrong. It is easier and simpler for me to do clean installs, than big upgrades. As for other settings, I cannot wait to check out what is new in the new. I figure that just as I have customised my current kde, I can still cutomise the new kde.

Tick tok....

[OldJimbo]

I have been reluctant to shift to kde 4 for lack of a simple backup plan in case something went wrong.

Please stop right now and make one. It really is time to see just what is vital. then that data should be saved in at least two places and one of those offsite.
It's only when data is irrevocably gone that you realize what it is worth.

[russell.eberhardt]

Agreed a separate partition for /home is a good idea but it is not the standard install from the Livedisk.

Sorry, senior moment, of course it is!  However, as others have pointed out it doesn't really help.

I await the new PCLinux 2010 with anticipation and also some trepidation.

Russell.

[kjpetrie]

It's my customised files in /etc that worry me when it comes to a clean install too. I have a number of tweaks to allow me to use my computer the way I want, including swapping host files so I can use my computer in two modes - local, disconnected from the Internet but with samba, postfix and apache running, and remote, with those services stopped but the Internet connected. Postfix is set up a particular way to divert everything into my local account. My apache configuration is quite extensive. I also have a script which changes the ethernet configuration for use with virtualbox the way I want it and sets routing through IPtables to the virtual machines. I also have the UK versions of a lot of programs installed, so there'd be a lot to change there.

I can't remember exactly where these are, and although it's all backed up, the question of what to restore from back up after an upgrade remains. Restore too much and you overwrite the new system's vital configuration. Restore too little and you lose your own config.

So I'm reviewing my options when it comes to the new 2010 release. Maybe I will reinstall, knowing I'm destroying a system I have built into what I want. Maybe I'll see what problems come if I try to upgrade through Synaptic first. After all, this installation started out as 2007 TR3 or TR4.

[T6]

i can have a /home in windows xp

well it is my documents but you can

not much people doing it but you can

[ElCuervo]

"Everyone of us was a newbie once"

speak for yourself!  i am still a newbie, but honestly basically a nooooob!

All the world was new to me once upon a time, but at my age, it is starting to look a little frayed around the edges.I am no guru in Linux (among other things), but I am no noob, either.

I have been reluctant to shift to kde 4 for lack of a simple backup plan in case something went wrong.

Please stop right now and make one. It really is time to see just what is vital. then that data should be saved in at least two places and one of those offsite.
It's only when data is irrevocably gone that you realize what it is worth.

This has been the first rule of this world-weary old traveler for a very long time, no matter what the endeavor: Never jump without first taking a long, hard look at where you will land, and be sure to have at least Plans B, C, and D in place in case things go wrong.

(a tip of the hat to kjpetrie and all the other cautionary MLU posters, too)

[T6]

"I am no guru in Linux (among other things), but I am no noob, either."

ok, i'm alone on this club 

[OldJimbo]

http://www.twit.tv/ww128

Windows Weekly podcast on upgrade issues for Windows7.

It's well worthwhile to know about issues with using Windows "upgrade" version with XP which apparently needs a clean install. And at the end after hosing all XP data, you find out that upgrade won't validate/activate - because an "upgrade" version isn't for clean install.

Hilarious! Even Windows Weekly complains about, and ridicules M$.