Author Topic: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows  (Read 2422 times)

Offline russell.eberhardt

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Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« on: February 01, 2010, 03:26:08 AM »
Updates from Synaptic frequently cause problems.  Usually these are easily solved by searching the Forum or by posting a question here. 

Typical problems are with peripherals not working or user settings getting lost. 

Now we are told that the upgrade to PCLinux 2010 / KDE4 will be a clean install.  So, we have to back up and reinstall all user data, reinstall all software together with their user preferences.

While I don't find this a problem, if PCLinux is to be accepted as a true alternative to Windows for the average user, it will be necessary to be able to perform updates and upgrades more easily.  I hate to admit it but Windows performs better in this respect.  When I have installed PCLinux for non computer literate friends I don't allow them to update from Synaptic,  I do it for them very occasionally.

PCLinux is such a good system that it is a shame to make it difficult for the average user.

Sorry if this sounds like a complaint, I really do appreciate all the hard work put in by Textar and the team.

Russell.
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Offline Archie

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 04:43:01 AM »
Hello Russell,

While your post do make make sound arguments, I would have to disagree with you. But first let me get my understanding right. A clean install of PCLinuxOS versus that of a clean install of whatever Windows version? One, everything one (average user) would need to install would all be in a single repository. Misplaced CD with critical Windows driver? How about a Microsoft Office CD and a user couldn't get the serial number typed in properly?

I do feel for those who falls into issues with PCLinuxOS. Perhaps the latest hardware that any Linux distro might not have a driver for it (nVidia comes to mind a lot). Or selective updates?

I guess I am luckier than many that I didn't have any major issues with PCLinuxOS. I guess what I am saying is each of our mile may vary (YMMV) so we PCLOS works great on some users and their hardware and at the same time it may be a big hassle to some and theirs.

Our devs do not have all those hardware to test the distro and ensure that they would work. It'll be a lot of money for them, and they are doing development out of their own good hearts.

As for user preferences and settings, it has been mentioned numerous time that if you have a separate /home, it is only a matter of reinstalling the appropriate apps and one should retain their settings as if it didn't change at all. For my example, I will back up only KMail, Firefox, Akregator, Superkaramba, VirtualBox among others and I don't think that would be too hard. Besides, a backup is always a wise thing to do.

My two cents.

Archie
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Offline bicol_willem

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 04:47:59 AM »
"When I have installed PCLinux for non computer literate friends I don't allow them to update from Synaptic,  I do it for them very occasionally."

Let them "free" mate so that they can find out first hand that Synaptic is their real friend!   ;D ;D

Offline ElCuervo

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 09:23:54 AM »
Quote
Updates from Synaptic frequently cause problems for those who do it wrong.
There, fixed it for you - can't even remember when that happened to me last, but I know it did, and I'm sure I did it wrong, too.

I recently did clean install of both WinXP and Win7, as well as clean installs of PCLinuxOS. It never ceases to amaze me that Windows ALWAYS takes more than an hour, not counting updates, and I can get PCLinuxOS installed in less than that, INCLUDING updates. This has held true for me for several years now.

Quote
While I don't find this a problem, if PCLinux is to be accepted as a true alternative to Windows for the average user, it will be necessary to be able to perform updates and upgrades more easily.
Your "average user" must be a completely different person than mine - I know darn few that update when they should, and even fewer that can upgrade anything - especially Windows. Besides, I for one don't care any more if Linux is accepted as a "true alternative" for users that are as dumb as a box of rocks.
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Offline T6

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 10:03:19 AM »
"if PCLinux is to be accepted as a true alternative to Windows for the average user, it will be necessary to be able to perform updates and upgrades more easily.  I hate to admit it but Windows performs better in this respect. "

i'm sorry but as a windows pc technician i have seen updates destroying windows installations, that is why most users never update their systems and they specifically set the system to never search for updates

apps broken because a update damaged a config or deleted a dll is some of the most common problems i solve and most of the times, all you can do to fix this is reinstall windows, that is the answer you will get in any windows forum, always

say that windows is easier to update is something very close to be dreaming or be delusional and i say this as a pc technician with more than a decade of experience
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Offline stealth

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 11:49:20 AM »
Even with the current problems with the switch from kde 3 to kde 4, Linux is still easier to install, re-install, upgrade, etc...

As was already mentioned, separate partitions for /home as well as / and /usr make updating, upgrading and full re-installs easy. I just did a full re-install of my system about a month ago and because I had /home on its own partition and told the installer to leave it alone, I was back up and running in just a few minutes after the install was done. Everything looked just the same as it did before I did the re-install. You can't do that with winblows. I have been using only Linux for the last 7 years. My last personal winblows OS was 2000 pro. I also had to work with XP pro for a short time. I have only seen Vista and never messed with it. I haven't even seen 7.

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 12:10:01 PM »
Quote
i'm sorry but as a windows pc technician i have seen updates destroying windows installations, that is why most users never update their systems and they specifically set the system to never search for updates

Having helped a few friends get their Windows boxes into shape recently, it's hard to believe how long it takes to put all service packs on XP. But certainly I have recently seen a few machines which were never upgraded since being purchased many years ago.
In the old days, it was considered proper to re-install Win95 once a year - otherwise it ground to a halt. That changed with registry tools being widely available.
But having fixed up machines which were upgraded through several versions of Windows - a clean install was the best solution. Registry tools and mft purge and PerfectDisk defrag work to a point - but a failed Symantec or other antivirus always came back to haunt.

In the past, when  new version of PCLinux  has arrived, I must admit that I've installed it on a new partition and kept the old version until I felt good about the changes. So in a strange way - I've always supported fresh install, but for my own reasons.

Since Vista, reinstall has meant first formatting the partition. I'm curious about whether most new Windows machines come with a OS partition and a data partition. The current state of advice with regard to compromised systems is to format and reinstall the OS, due to rootkits. In my own experience with my grand-kids machine, Vista failed due a power outage. I was surprised that I couldn't get around the issue - since I could read and backup data using Linux. Later I was able to re-use the drive, too - after getting it to mark bad blocks.

It does appear to be a big pain, helping people to backup properly then re-install. I'm aware of the time required. But many people will not have backed up properly - despite the fact that these days everyone has photos on their drive. It's surprising how many computers have CD/DVD burners which only read DVD - so backing up might require a new DVD burner, given the size of digital pics now.
I'm in the process of backing up my main drive now - onto a external backup drive, and DVD. I'd put it off for a while, which is always foolish given today's terabyte drives. So while I haven't lost anything, I do feel foolish for taking silly risks.
Most Windows users have to be reminded of why to back up, and educated in how to do so. So I'd bet that M$ would go through any upgrade kludge in order to prevent people complaining of losing data because they failed to read the instructions before re-installing.





Offline T6

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 02:16:12 PM »
"I was back up and running in just a few minutes after the install was done. Everything looked just the same as it did before I did the re-install. You can't do that with winblows."

no, it can be done but unfortunately any wrong registry entries, viruses and failing config settings will be saved too and when you want to reinstall windows is 90% probable that you want to get rid of this

"Having helped a few friends get their Windows boxes into shape recently, it's hard to believe how long it takes to put all service packs on XP. But certainly I have recently seen a few machines which were never upgraded since being purchased many years ago."

i tried to let a system update to see if it could fix a error it had to avoid installation(too many files to do backup)

4 hours later i decided to do the backup(even with the many many files)  :(

"It's surprising how many computers have CD/DVD burners which only read DVD - so backing up might require a new DVD burner, given the size of digital pics now."

i found a bigger problem, a person i met, purchased a very expensive dvd burner but never used it

the fact that you have a tool doesn't mean that you know how to use it
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OldJimbo

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 06:11:59 PM »
Quote
i found a bigger problem, a person i met, purchased a very expensive dvd burner but never used it
A good opportunity to show someone!
For a while when Vista first came out, the basic burning programs which came even with cheap burners - simply wouldn't work. So a person either used the burning utility which was part of Windows Explorer - which was awkward - or upgrade to a full version of Nero for considerable expense. So many people gave up and haven't gotten around to seeing what is now available for free.
Luckily I'm still mainly fixing XP machines so I have various copies of the programs which came with burners, but I'm thinking of getting friends to standardize on something like free Imgburn. that way if they phone with a question, I'm likely to be able to offer help over the phone.
Any better suggestions for free burning/backup programs?
Hopefully I'm following the intent of the thread.. I see three points emerging for the friends I help:
1. They're reluctant computer users who only care about email and sending/receiving pictures etc. So they intend to get maximum lifespan from their XP machines. An upgrade when it comes will be a big jump.
2. As above - I'm wondering if non-updated XP machines with limited RAM could be successfully upgraded. One can clean out the power supplies and re-grease/replace fans - but the hard drives are over five years old now. So even with hardware upgrades, OS upgrading may not be worthwhile with Windows. The people seem happy enough with the speed increase which comes from putting things into order and increasing memory.
3. I've been happy with major updates of PCL despite being skeptical at first. More to the point I've been happy because the new versions ran well on older hardware. I'm wondering when one of my friends will be given a Win7 DVD and how I would safely get it installed... For now I push toward getting machines updated and so working properly and not susceptible to malware.


Offline russell.eberhardt

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 01:20:19 PM »
Thanks for all the replies chaps.

It seems that they all think that the updating/upgrading is easy.  I note that all the replies are from seasoned members of the forum.  So of course the process is easy?  I started programming computers in 1965 using Algol on an Elliot 803 machine before moving on to ICL 1904, Honeywell, and PDP8 machines in the early seventies and no, I don't have any real problems either.  Any (most) problems are sorted out very quickly.

However, I was trying to look at things from the point of view of a user who has no experience of, or even interest in, computers except as a user of applications. In this light I must make a few comments on the replies so far:

Quote
Quote
Updates from Synaptic frequently cause problems for those who do it wrong.
Yes, of course if you do it wrong there will be problems, but there are also problems when you do it right. 
Frequently, after updating from Synaptic, I have to remove and re-install my printers (HP Laserjet and Deskjet) to get them to work again.  Not long ago, after an update hyperlinks in Thunderbird would not launch Firefox (OK this was a problem from Mozilla not PCLinux exactly but it is part of the package as far as the user is concerned).

Quote
separate partitions for /home as well as / and /usr make updating, upgrading and full re-installs easy
Agreed a separate partition for /home is a good idea but it is not the standard install from the Livedisk.  Not so sure about /usr, aren't there some files in that tree that are likely to need to be changed with an upgrade?  There are also the system tweaks we all will have made that will not be stored in the above directories I can't remember where they all are, can you?  Yes, I know I should document all changes I make but I don't!

I'm not sure about Windows 7 as I have no intention to use it but upgrading from Windows 95 to 2000, XP, and then Vista was possible without a complete reinstall and user data together with (most) settings were retained.  I know it's a good idea to do a clean install occasionally but not everyone wants to, or is able to, do it.  It would be a bonus if an upgrade disk could be made available for PCLinux 2010 to give a straightforward upgrade while retaining as many settings as possible.

Russell.

Desktop: Gigabyte GA-MA770T-UD3 motherboard, NVIDIA GeForce 8400GS, AMD Phenom II Quad Core Processor 3GHz, 4GB ram, 250GB + 500GB SATA HD,

Offline stealth

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 01:43:13 PM »
Any system tweaks that are user created will be stored in /home/<user>

Yes, non-power users don't know how to do much. But a straight out of the box default install is still easier and faster with Linux than winblows.

Also before the change from kde 3 to kde 4 upgrades and updates weren't a problem. Once kde 4 gets stable the upgrades/updates should be okay again.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 01:56:17 PM by stealth »

Offline ElCuervo

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 01:49:28 PM »
Quote
I note that all the replies are from seasoned members of the forum.
Everyone of us was a newbie once - are you saying we shouldn't expect to put a little seasoning on the fresh ones?

Quote
Agreed a separate partition for /home is a good idea but it is not the standard install from the Livedisk.
Hmm... coulda sworn it was, and I know it was way back when... that's how I learned what a cool method it was to prevent data loss. Now I even do that on Windows boxes.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 01:52:40 PM by ElCuervo »
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Offline Was_Just19

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 02:58:51 PM »
Quote
It would be a bonus if an upgrade disk could be made available for PCLinux 2010 to give a straightforward upgrade while retaining as many settings as possible.

Russell.

The liveCD is an upgrade disk .........  it will replace the old OS while leaving your personal settings in place ........ as all live CDs of PCLOS have been for as far back as I can remember.
That has been the default setting in live CDs from PCLOS for quite some time ......

Offline slax

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 04:16:52 PM »
I also tried to introduce several friends to pclos, but with no luck :(
Main problem was setting up the hardware, and another friend didn't had the internet connection, so he was unable to install anything.

I know it's possible to manually install rpms, that's what i did on his comp. But I introduced him to new os and he wanted to explore everything and become familiar, install and check out all sorts of apps, etc... Which in his case was not possible because of no internet connection. So for the average user it's not solution to call a technician everytime he wants to install video player or whatever.

The huge minus for pclos is not being able to transport and install software on offline computers imho.
Some software for this needs to be created soon. To fetch the app rpm and its dependencies into one file, and then to be transported and installed on offline comp.
Other than that remains the stability, which is great with pclos, and hardware support.

Another case why users wont switch to linux is because there are no "killer" apps for linux. For some that are video games, to others it's 3dstudio max, photoshop, corel, some CAD etc.

That's what i think of pclos being a win reall alternative.
Please share your thoughts.

Cheers



Offline stealth

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Re: Upgrading PCLinux v. Windows
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 04:52:43 PM »
There are all kinds of apps to replace most winblows apps.

You can already set up pclos to use dvds instead of an online repo.

You have been using Linux very long have you?