Suggestion for future KDE3-4 upgrade situations

[The_Dadu]

Many of us are caught it the trap between our current (and official) KDE3-based PCLOS systems and the lack of an official KDE4 release.  While many of the more technically and some of the more adventurous not-technically competent among PCLOS users have been able to upgrade their systems to the 'new', there are those of us who are more risk-adverse.  It may be too late to change the current procedures in place in the repositories for this type of situation, but it is never too early to learn from our opportunities (pc enough??).
My suggestion:
Like the separate KDE4 section of the repository, create a (or use the KDE4) section for the versions of software that are dependent on the new release or require removal of software that is dependent on the previous release.  Obviously, this can't be done for every possible version change and should be reserved for major upgrades that break compatability of significant components, like KDE, Gnome, or the like.  No system based on dependencies can be perfect, and I would expect the end user will still need to pay attention when upgrading; but this would make the job easier for those of us who might not know whether a particular package is dependent on a certain version of a major component.  I would also propose that the separate repository section be sunsetted a reasonable time (a couple of months?) after the release of an official PCLOS release on the new version, just like what was done on the 0.93 to 2007 upgrade.

[vc]

... and some of the more adventurous not-technically competent among PCLOS users have been able to upgrade their systems to the 'new,

Do I sense that you may perhaps be referring to me?  ;-)

No worry... mea culpa.  All I wish to post here is this brief comment:  if done in the correct manner, there is no risk at all associated with being so "adventurous", as you put it - so; by all means, please feel free to experiment!  On a fresh install, you are truly free to do anything you wish... and if something should break down or go wrong, there's no loss at all; you simply wipe the botched effort and start over again.  Please trust me; it really is the very best way to truly learn how to grapple and come to some terms with this whole linux thing - by doing 'crazy' things, and breaking it!  It is oftentimes very frustrating, this method of learning... but it is occasionally flecked with fun and elation, too.

Either perform the experimenting upon a spare computer entirely, or, if you do not have ready access to such, then simply swap out the existing hard drive.  Nearly any old hard drive would be adequate, assuming you've booted the Hiren's, tested it, and found it to be defect-free... for example; the system I am typing on right now is running from an old 4GB SCSI drive that I truly did pick out of the scrap bin - for free.  The same situation exists for old IDE drives as well, of course, and also for some of the older, 'smaller' SATA drives too (40GB, for example).  Anything of 4GB size or larger is adequate for experimentation.  In short, such experimentation is really quite easy, and may truly cost you absolutely nothing, save for the expenditure of time and perhaps also the minor effort involved in swapping a drive.

I heartily encourage any and everyone to attempt it, at least once or twice.  The more capable amongst the crowd may be smiling at us from their VMs, but so what?  We're new drivers, buddy - says so, right there on the back of the car.   ;-)

If you are running a netbook, on the other hand, then make use of its BIOS bootdevice selection menu function, and perform the 'experimental' install upon a 4GB-or-greater SDHC card or USB stick, instead.

My point is simply that even for those whom are unfamiliar with the technical details of linux, this procedure is indeed very simple, and easy.  Having a separate computer is obviously the safest; however, the driveswap method is also safe - your existing setup does remain on the removed drive, and is restored to exactly the same condition it was in previously, when that drive is swapped back in again.  If it's not connected, then it cannot be affected.

For the netbook users, just be mindful of which partition your original install is on - and then be sure to leave it alone; don't mount it, always use Custom partitioning, and make certain there that the installer does not bother it either.  Slightly more tricky, yet perfectly safe regardless, so long as one pays attention and knows where everything is.

[kjpetrie]

I think the thing you have to remember about the "risk" of upgrading a rolling release is that the longer you leave it the greater the risk becomes. Synaptic/apt/rpm can only cope with so much change at a time before it loses sight of a clear upgrade path, which is why if you upgrade monthly or more frequently things usually go smoothly whereas if you leave it three months or more the upgrade will almost certainly fail.

This is particularly important when a 'big update' requiring special instructions is involved. Those special instructions are unlikely to work three months later, as they are designed around the state of the release at the time they are given. KDE3-4 is such a big change. I surmise from the reports of a new repo directory (not to be used on current systems) that another big update is pending, probably when the pclos2010 livecd appears.

While you wait for assurance the upgrade will be stable the current state of the release is gradually moving further away from what is installed on your system and the upgrade will become progressively more problematic. Wait too long and you could be forced to reinstall.

[fraxinus]

This is particularly important when a 'big update' requiring special instructions is involved. Those special instructions are unlikely to work three months later, as they are designed around the state of the release at the time they are given. KDE3-4 is such a big change. I surmise from the reports of a new repo directory (not to be used on current systems) that another big update is pending, probably when the pclos2010 livecd appears.

Indeed - and I myself am an example of the kind of user whom The_Dadu would describe as 'risk-averse' so I tend to be cautious about doing 'big updates' when they are first unveiled!

My main concern about the kind of intermittent 'big update' that a rolling distro like PCLOS requires from time to time is that users who do not stay in touch with announcements on the forum may not know what's required until too late, and find themselves with a partly broken system from what they thought would be a 'routine' update. This is particularly the case at present, when new users who download the 2009.2 iso (KDE 3) may have problems straightaway trying to update unless they know that they must either install KDE 4 or move to the 'frozen' KDE 3.5 repo.

This is a concern to me as most of the people whom I convert to PCLinuxOS are not at all technically minded. They would not dream of hanging out on a forum like this one as they have no interest in the technicalities of computers or Linux. I have set them up with this distro because it 'just works', and as such they like it very much.

I do think this is a concern if we are promoting PCLOS as being 'radically simple', and as (amongst other things, of course!) a Windows replacement that anyone can use. It is a shame that the repo cannot be set up to issue some kind of warning or instruction message, via Synaptic, to alert users that they need to take a slightly unusual step of some kind if they wish to continue updating beyond a 'big update' point.

[The_Dadu]

I know I'm running a risk by staying with KDE3 and I will probably need to reinstall the longer I wait.  I backup my data to an external drive regularly.  I apply upgrades weekly, if not more often, and read the forums regularly (not every post - don't have that much time!).  Even so, I didn't hear about the sunsetting of KDE3 support within PCLOS until several months later when I was investigating the removal of KDEADDONS by the upgrades.  I have previously posted about the lack of a homepage announcement.

Most of the responses have nothing to do with the point of my post.  I was making a recommendation about learning from our past to aid our future.