Author Topic: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)  (Read 1169 times)

Offline horusfalcon

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 09:49:25 PM »

{snipped for brevity}


Assuredly.  Profanity is the last refuge of the unimaginative (or, conversely, is the last resort when communicating with the unimaginative).


I very much doubt that.



I think you may have missed my point.  When intelligent people swear, one of two things has happened:  either their minds have "failed open" at the incongruity or sheer stupidity of a situation, and they lose control for a while over their words, or they are attempting to make a point with someone on the other end of the conversation who is at present (in the swearer's opinion) quite possibly well-informed on the topic but, nonetheless, so wrong as to require a very rough re-calibration of their thought processes.

As an example of what an imaginative person might use in lieu of profanity, I humbly submit in evidence:

French Taunting - Monty Python and the Holy Grail


Quote
The degree to which we are offended by profanity is entirely determined by where we live - and perhaps by when we happen to be living - our cultural context, if you will. Many Americans find even mild profanity unacceptable. A probably larger number of Americans don't - or there would be a lot less swearing in major American films. And most Finns aren't easily shocked.


As a former submarine sailor, yeah, I get that profanity and one's tolerance to it are relative things, and influenced by social setting, and other cultural factors.  I have been rather imaginative at being unimaginative in my time, if you take my meaning.  

Quote
That some people are shocked is something to be grateful for though: if strong language shocked no-one Linus could as well stop using it, it wouldn't have the desired rhetorical effect any more.


Quite right.  I could not agree more.

{snipped out psychological research cited here to back up a point to which I readily agree...}

Quote from: horusfalcon
I can understand Linus' frustration over this.  He's right, you know.  UEFI Secure Boot exists solely to address a problem in Windows, and is being misused by Microsoft to exclude Linux (collateral damage) and Windows XP (the real target) from running on Windows 8-Certified Hardware.  Somewhere in the Halls of Justice, someone should be filing a monopolistic practices lawsuit any day now...

Later On,
D

[/quote]

Did you quote this last bit of mine because you disagree with my take on what Microsoft's purpose for Secure Boot is?  It's a simple piece of math to me:  ALL of Linux won't account for even a sliver of the installed Windows XP (and lately I've read, all Windows prior to Win 8 ) systems that comprise the major obstacle to adoption of Windows 8 (aside from its undeniably poor usability, and the utter disregard for its potential users shown in its design and development, that is...).  We Linux users are collateral damage.  Previous versions of Windows are Microsoft's real target here.  It must be rough being your own competition.  (Clue for Microsoft:  This wouldn't happen if you didn't release such drek.  Stop trying to polish a coprolite!)

There.  Ya happy now?  I've become unimaginative again.   ;)  (Yeah, I'm a-funnin' ya!)

Later On,
D
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 09:51:46 PM by horusfalcon »
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Offline trustytrev

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 11:07:15 AM »
Hello,
     As Microsofts UEFI is obviously a barrier for new novice adopters of Linux, I think bad language is the least of the issues that matter.It cuts right to the heart of the Linux idea and will be a fatal blow to its adoption by a large number of people.I think it is just another way for Microsoft to perpetuate the myth Linux is somehow difficult to understand and use instead of Microsoft products.I am sure if I had been unable to get a livecd to just load I would probably never have got to use Linux as it would have failed at the first hurdle.However when one looks at the various devices using different operating systems available these days this may just be the final push that breaks Microsoft's strangle hold on IT.
trustytrev. :)
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Offline Crow

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 02:41:54 PM »
There you have it, an alternative given by Linus with an emphasis in "empower the people not MS"

http://www.muktware.com/5295/linus-torvalds-suggests-how-handle-uefi-secure-boot-crisis
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Offline horusfalcon

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013, 03:34:06 PM »
There you have it, an alternative given by Linus with an emphasis in "empower the people not MS"

http://www.muktware.com/5295/linus-torvalds-suggests-how-handle-uefi-secure-boot-crisis


Huzzah!  Maybe folks who code will look up for a minute and listen.
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Offline muungwana

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 05:01:56 PM »

I think you may have missed my point.  When intelligent people swear, one of two things has happened:  either their minds have "failed open" at the incongruity or sheer stupidity of a situation, and they lose control for a while over their words, or they are attempting to make a point with someone on the other end of the conversation who is at present (in the swearer's opinion) quite possibly well-informed on the topic but, nonetheless, so wrong as to require a very rough re-calibration of their thought processes.


For me,to the most part. I see those who swear as people who simply lack the capacity to full express themselves and they resort to swearing to cover up their deficiencies.To them,i say,"pick up a literature book and start reading or something".As a person who live in a English speaking country with English not being my first and comfortable language to converse in, i can appreciate how annoying it is to know what i want to say but not coming up with proper words and language structure to say it properly.Being stuck in a middle of sentence is not fun,plugging in a curse word as a substitute is being cheap.

At the end of the day,people do what they are allowed to do and as long as people give him a pass at it,he will keep on using this kind of language.Do others use this kind of language to others and to him in the mailing list?

He is a troll and an abuser his position. There is quite a bit of misogynistic sentiments in his comment and everybody will look pass it because he is who he is and is "fighting the good fight".

Its time to stop posting these kinds of "news".They do nothing but glorify bad behaviors the rest of us will be called out on if engaged in kind.

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Offline Crow

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 05:42:44 PM »
There are proper and improper ways to communicate and there is the message too, maybe the way is not the best but that doesn't invalidate the message.

After the passivity of many open software community and the Dedoimedo's quasi-apology to Microsoft on the UEFI thing is refreshing to see someone like him talking about the importance of the final user.
I shall pass this way but once;
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or any kindness that I can show
let me not defer nor neglect it,
for I shall not pass this way again.

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Offline horusfalcon

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 06:03:03 PM »

I think you may have missed my point.  When intelligent people swear, one of two things has happened:  either their minds have "failed open" at the incongruity or sheer stupidity of a situation, and they lose control for a while over their words, or they are attempting to make a point with someone on the other end of the conversation who is at present (in the swearer's opinion) quite possibly well-informed on the topic but, nonetheless, so wrong as to require a very rough re-calibration of their thought processes.


For me,to the most part. I see those who swear as people who simply lack the capacity to full express themselves and they resort to swearing to cover up their deficiencies.To them,i say,"pick up a literature book and start reading or something".As a person who live in a English speaking country with English not being my first and comfortable language to converse in, i can appreciate how annoying it is to know what i want to say but not coming up with proper words and language structure to say it properly.Being stuck in a middle of sentence is not fun,plugging in a curse word as a substitute is being cheap.

At the end of the day,people do what they are allowed to do and as long as people give him a pass at it,he will keep on using this kind of language.Do others use this kind of language to others and to him in the mailing list?

He is a troll and an abuser his position. There is quite a bit of misogynistic sentiments in his comment and everybody will look pass it because he is who he is and is "fighting the good fight".

Its time to stop posting these kinds of "news".They do nothing but glorify bad behaviors the rest of us will be called out on if engaged in kind.

I see what you are saying and even tend to agree in sentiment, but I would ask that we not get into whether Linus is being misogynistic, misandristic, homophobic, or whatever - imputing emotions or sentiments to another person based on his or her choice of words is a slippery business, and seldom yields accurate results.  Beyond that, and more importantly, it accomplishes little.  I've seen so much of this erupt into endless drivel on other boards with little to show for it but column inches full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

I personally excuse this as understandable anger over what is a monumental mistake on the part of well-meaning folks trying to solve the wrong problem.  Maybe that's because I learned a long time ago to attempt to look beyond the words used to deliver a message and try to get at the content of the message, especially if the speaker is angry, disturbed, or perturbed.  (It ain't always easy, as some of my past posts will bear out.)

As a side note:  why is it when people learn a new language, curse words are among some of the first learned?  Is it something perverse in human nature, or is it that the concepts behind curse words are universal?  Japanese has very few actual curse words, for example, but has many words or phrases that one would not wish to utter with undue emphasis lest they become curses.  (This ties in with the Japanese belief in Kotodama, a notion that words have a certain intrinsic power unto themselves, but also with the idea that one's tone of voice implies more about their feelings or attitude than the actual words used.)

Well, I've gotten woefully off track here. Language is fascinating stuff.  Let's wrap it up.  Linus definitely made his feelings about this matter known in no uncertain terms - that was his stated aim, and stems from his unique background and his own experiences.  Like it or not, he's the man in charge of the kernel, and he has to herd the cats that do the coding.  If it were any of us in his place, we'd probably curse more often, just not publicly, maybe.

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Offline muungwana

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 07:18:06 PM »

I see what you are saying and even tend to agree in sentiment, but I would ask that we not get into whether Linus is being misogynistic, misandristic, homophobic, or whatever - imputing emotions or sentiments to another person based on his or her choice of words is a slippery business, and seldom yields accurate results.  Beyond that, and more importantly, it accomplishes little.  I've seen so much of this erupt into endless drivel on other boards with little to show for it but column inches full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

I personally excuse this as understandable anger over what is a monumental mistake on the part of well-meaning folks trying to solve the wrong problem.  Maybe that's because I learned a long time ago to attempt to look beyond the words used to deliver a message and try to get at the content of the message, especially if the speaker is angry, disturbed, or perturbed.  (It ain't always easy, as some of my past posts will bear out.)

As a side note:  why is it when people learn a new language, curse words are among some of the first learned?  Is it something perverse in human nature, or is it that the concepts behind curse words are universal?  Japanese has very few actual curse words, for example, but has many words or phrases that one would not wish to utter with undue emphasis lest they become curses.  (This ties in with the Japanese belief in Kotodama, a notion that words have a certain intrinsic power unto themselves, but also with the idea that one's tone of voice implies more about their feelings or attitude than the actual words used.)


See what you did there? you are excusing his carefully chosen set of words while conditioning his listeners not to read any bad intent in them.What incentive will he have to not use them in the future?

you excuse this one? what about the previous one,or the next one? What choice of words would make you say "i agree with what you wish to accomplish but that goes too far,tone it down a little"

I think all languages have curse words because every culture has atleast one thing people do not like to be reminded of or words people prefer not to hear.


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Offline horusfalcon

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »
{snip:  my previous}

See what you did there? you are excusing his carefully chosen set of words while conditioning his listeners not to read any bad intent in them.What incentive will he have to not use them in the future?

you excuse this one? what about the previous one,or the next one? What choice of words would make you say "i agree with what you wish to accomplish but that goes too far,tone it down a little"

I think all languages have curse words because every culture has atleast one thing people do not like to be reminded of or words people prefer not to hear.

In that last statement you may be right, I don't know.  I was merely curious about why, when learning a new tongue, folks tend to learn those taboo expressions early on.  I'm attempting to get at something basic in human nature by asking the question.  The whole thing was off-topic and that's bad form, really, so I'm not going to pursue it further here.

I certainly didn't mean to "condition" anyone - I explained how I feel and why.  You give my powers of persuasion too much credit, my friend.

As for what I, personally, excuse or what I don't?  I'll have to deal with the next one when it occurs.  After all, who know what sort of sulfur and brimstone will issue from the man's mouth next time, eh?  It may be enough to offend even me.  Hopefully, though, I will still get to the message behind the obscenities because that is what I choose to do.

All I really want is for us to not engage in speculations about the man's character based on what he says when he is angry.  What is such speculation most likely to produce?  Bad feelings all around, I'd wager, without much else of benefit being accomplished.

Later On,
D
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Offline Old-Polack

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 09:34:31 PM »
We have those words to signify the ending of an argument, and cessation of hostilities. After a heated argument, what better way to part, as friends, than to signal the end of the debate with each participant wishing the other an enjoyable sexual experience to round out the evening?

 ;D
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Offline muungwana

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 09:45:52 PM »
you can start another thread in sandbox and talk of your observation on people learning first bad words when learning a new language.When i was in high school,i went to an indian school and i asked to be taught of a few indian words and curses were the ones that were offered first.It was funny cause i couldnt tell which word was a curse word and which one was not and the only way to know was either to ask another student or somebody to smile at my face and explain what i just said.

What happens in discussions around linus' comments is a phenomenal in human thinking i am sure there is a technical word for it i am not aware of.Its like when somebody shoots his wife because she cheated on him and everybody says "well,she shouldn't have cheated on him with that guy",yes,she shouldn't have cheated on him with that guy,she shouldn't have cheated on him with any guy,but he shouldn't have shot her either.

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Offline Wildman

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 10:02:24 PM »
I still say he's a "Spoiled Brat"  ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Texstar

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2013, 01:06:24 AM »
We have those words to signify the ending of an argument, and cessation of hostilities. After a heated argument, what better way to part, as friends, than to signal the end of the debate with each participant wishing the other an enjoyable sexual experience to round out the evening?

 ;D

 ;D ;D ;D

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Offline Crow

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2013, 05:53:18 PM »
We have those words to signify the ending of an argument, and cessation of hostilities. After a heated argument, what better way to part, as friends, than to signal the end of the debate with each participant wishing the other an enjoyable sexual experience to round out the evening?

 ;D

 ;D ;D ;D

+1
I shall pass this way but once;
any good therefore that I can do,
or any kindness that I can show
let me not defer nor neglect it,
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Offline menotu

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Re: Linus Torvalds Explodes at Red Hat Developer (UEFI argument)
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2013, 07:14:31 AM »
I doubt Mr Torvalds (or rather his posts) wouldn't last long on this forum if he "vented his spleen" like he's apt to

I am sure he is quite capable of expressing himself within the confines of this forum's rules also   ;)

Ya think??  ;D

If he did (and I'm not convinced that he would accept that "restriction") he'd be using caps lock most of the time.

Obviously I don't know the guy  and my "knowledge" of him is from blogs etc but he does seem to be someone who thinks a few course words win out.

I just see him as a bit of a bully

========================

On a side note.............

A post from him on Google+ re a Chromebook Pixel

Hey, I've joined all the cool kids in having one of the new Google "Pixel" laptops (aka Chromebooks).  And it is a beautiful screen, to the point where I suspect I'll make this my primary laptop. I tend to like my laptops slightly smaller, but I think I can lug around this 1.5kg monster despite feeling fairly strongly that a laptop should weigh 1kg or less.

....................

One thing that the Chromebook Pixel really brings home is how crap normal laptops have become. Why do PC manufacturers even bother any more? No wonder the PC business isn't doing well, when they stick to just churning out more crappy stuff and think that "full HD" (aka 1080p) is somehow the epitome of greatness.

https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/dk1aiW4JjHd

======================================

Google’s laptop does have  quality, but giving over  $1299 for Chrome OS , is errm well where do I start..........  ;D
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 07:23:33 AM by menotu »
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