Author Topic: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs  (Read 1460 times)

Offline kolosus

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I'm a bit out of touch in this forum... my apologies if it has been posted before.
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Thanks to Mary Jo Foley, we now know that in the name of "security," Microsoft will be trying to use UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) to block Linux, older versions of Windows, and other alternative operating systems from booting on Windows 8 PCs. Thanks Microsoft we appreciate it.

In a new Microsoft blog, Building Windows 8, by Steven Sinofsky, Microsoft's president of the Windows division, Linux isn't mentioned, and he tries to place the blame on the UEFI security protocol. Behind all his dodging, the facts are that Microsoft UEFI secure boot is requirement for Windows 8 certification and that, while "OEMs [original equipment manufacturers) are free to choose how to enable this support," they still have to have it. In turn, that will make it harder for OEMs to support alternative operating systems and, if the OEM does bow down to Microsoft's demands, it will make it almost impossible for end-users to run Linux, older versions of Windows, or other alternative operating systems on Windows 8 certified PCs.

In short, if Microsoft has its way, all Windows 8 PCs will be even more locked into their pre-installed operating systems than Macs are into Mac OS X. Indeed, a better comparison would be how phone companies lock you into their smartphone operating systems. Just like them the Windows 8 PC you buy in 2013 will be permanently locked into Windows 8. And, like smartphones, only expert firmware hackers will be able to switch out operating systems or even enable dual-booting operating systems.

This isn't the first time Microsoft has tried to lock out competitors from Windows PCs. In the early 2000s, Microsoft tried to combine Windows and the BIOS with a Digital Right Management (DRM) scheme called Next Generation Secure Computing Base (NGSCB), AKA Palladium. At the time, the point wasn't so much as to block operating systems as it was to build DRM into PCs so you couldn't play any music or video content unless you had a license for it. That effort failed.

That isn't stopping Microsoft from once more trying to stop you from using your computer the way you want to use it though.

Matthew Garrett, the Red Hat engineer who first spotted Microsoft's new sneak attack on alternative operating systems, has taken a new look at Microsoft's latest announcements and Garrett and Red Hat after "discussing the problem with other Linux vendors, hardware vendors and BIOS vendors [to make] sure that we understood the ramifications of the policy in order to avoid saying anything that wasn't backed up by facts. These are the facts:"

    Windows 8 certification requires that hardware ship with UEFI secure boot enabled.
    Windows 8 certification does not require that the user be able to disable UEFI secure boot, and we've already been informed by hardware vendors that some hardware will not have this option.
    Windows 8 certification does not require that the system ship with any keys other than Microsoft's.
    A system that ships with UEFI secure boot enabled and only includes Microsoft's signing keys will only securely boot Microsoft operating systems.

Garrett explains that this is a problem "Because there's no central certification authority for UEFI signing keys. Microsoft can require that hardware vendors include their keys. Their competition can't. A system that ships with Microsoft's signing keys and no others will be unable to perform secure boot of any operating system other than Microsoft's. No other vendor has the same position of power over the hardware vendors. Red Hat is unable to ensure that every OEM carries their signing key. Nor is Canonical. Nor is Nvidia, or AMD or any other PC component manufacturer. Microsoft's influence here is greater than even Intel's."

Indeed Microsoft still owns the desktop market. Macs still have less than 5% of the world desktop market according to Gartner and the Linux desktop has proven to be a non-starter, PC vendors will have little choice but to kowtow to Microsoft's Windows 8 demands.

"What does this mean for the end user?" continued Garrett. "Microsoft claims that the customer is in control of their PC. That's true, if by 'customer' they mean 'hardware manufacturer.' The end user is not guaranteed the ability to install extra signing keys in order to securely boot the operating system of their choice. The end user is not guaranteed the ability to disable this functionality. The end user is not guaranteed that their system will include the signing keys that would be required for them to swap their graphics card for one from another vendor, or replace their network card and still be able to netboot, or install a newer SATA controller and have it recognize their hard drive in the firmware. The end user is no longer in control of their PC."

Garrett concluded, "So, the truth is that Microsoft's move removes control from the end user and places it in the hands of Microsoft and the hardware vendors. The truth is that it makes it more difficult to run anything other than Windows. The truth is that UEFI secure boot is a valuable and worthwhile feature that Microsoft [is] misusing to gain tighter control over the market. And the truth is that Microsoft [hasn't] even attempted to argue otherwise."

Garrett is, understandably, most concerned about how this will effect desktop Linux. I wonder though if what Microsoft really wants is to avoid a repeat of the Vista fiasco by making sure OEMs and end-users can't go back to Windows 7 or XP. As Windows 7's slow adoption and Vista's flop has shown, users really haven't been that interested in moving off Windows XP. Since Windows 8's Metro interface adds an entirely new level of complications for both independent software vendors (ISV)s and end-users, I can see why Sinofsky would want to force Windows 8 down the throats of Windows users "for their own good."

So what does it all boil down to? As it stands now Microsoft is saying OEMs don't have to do it. They just have to do it if they want to sell PCs with Windows on them. Paging the anti-trust lawyers, I think Microsoft's latest attempt to abuse their PC monopoly power bears investigation. Welcome back Evil Empire, I knew you couldn't really be that far away.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/microsoft-to-stop-linux-older-windows-from-running-on-windows-8-pcs/9589
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Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts, it drinks even of dead waters.
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Offline Old-Polack

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2012, 04:41:35 PM »
Please... This was news back in September of 2011.  ???
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Offline µT6

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2012, 07:38:43 AM »
 ;D

hey, it is new for someone!
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Offline ppiklapp

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2012, 11:36:36 PM »
Shouldn't Microslot concentrate on getting a working system that is somewhat stable before trying to lock people to it?  After all, if you botch it, they will run.
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Offline Just17

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 04:11:13 AM »
Shouldn't Microslot concentrate on getting a working system that is somewhat stable before trying to lock people to it?  After all, if you botch it, they will run.

How can they run if they are locked in?


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Offline µT6

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 06:58:02 AM »
they can't, that is the type of logic they apply to everything, that is why most of their products doesn't work as required  ;D
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Offline russell.eberhardt

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 08:34:33 AM »
Bring back Bill Gates.  All is forgiven, well perhaps not quite all ;D

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Offline Alfred

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 01:28:59 AM »
For some of us, it's already painfully reality.

Offline Tony

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 02:08:13 AM »
1.) I now know why your username is kolosus, that's o.k. we know what to expect now  ;)

While we're at it:
2.) Microsoft !!! How do they get away with it ?  ;D
3.) Posting 'not about UEFI' to give a taste, maybe, (most certainly) what we may expect.
4.) When I felt they (MS) had probably stabilised their consumer hatred with Win 7, they go and release a new unknown.  ???

My memory was prompted as I digress, that MS's X Box 360 had/has the largest defect rate coming out of the Factory of any product. They seem to revel in their badness, and it is planned, no doubting that. Someone's laughing very heartily somewhere, 'Mr. Gates'  >:(

Some excerpts from Original 360 defect rate was 68 per cent By Tom Bramwell Published Monday, 8 September 2008
We have to travel back to 2005 to begin,... :o
"The factory defect rate for Xbox 360 consoles in August 2005 - four months prior to its US launch - was as high as 68 per cent."
What's more, the initial yield on the three-core CPU designed by IBM for the next-generation console was just 16 per cent.

That's all according to a report by VentureBeat's Dean Takahashi, author of the console's unofficial biography, of sorts, Xbox 360 Uncloaked, who attributed the numbers to "several sources".
Xbox 360 defects: an inside history of Microsoft's video game console woes

In his article Xbox 360 defects: an inside history of Microsoft's videogame console woes, Takahashi also wrote that during meetings to outline the Xbox 360 project, "Secretly, Microsoft had planned on selling 50 million Xbox 360s".

Later on, Takahashi's sources claim that Microsoft was well aware of the massive defect rate (although entertainment division boss Robbie Bach has subsequently denied there was any concern about it at the time) and chose to press on with the console's launch anyway.

Over 1.2 million consoles were returned by early 2007, he wrote, and eventually Microsoft announced a free replacement service as it got its head around the problem.

Microsoft also took ownership of the ATI and IBM chip designs at the heart of the console. "However," Takahashi pointed out, "this was a mistake: it was now responsible for failures related to the chip." Yeah - oops.

The result of all the failures was, initially, a "bone pile" in a warehouse at manufacturer Wistron and a repair centre in Texas of over 500,000 consoles that either didn't work to begin with or broke quickly. All the while we were being told failures were within "normal rates for consumer electronics products".

Later, between January and June 2007, Microsoft even shut down manufacturing, according to Takahashi, in order to investigate.

Yet for all this, Takahashi reported that Robbie Bach told fellow diners at some sort of technology banquet in July that gamers have largely forgiven the company for the defectives 360s.

For Microsoft's part, it said: "This new story repeats old information, and contains rumors and innuendo from anonymous sources, attempting to create a new sensational angle, and is highly irresponsible." ;D

Dean Takahashi - Xbox 360 defects: an inside history of Microsoft's video game console woes
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Offline Alfred

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 03:33:34 AM »
Tony
Interesting article and comments.
Unfortunate I fail to see how it relates to Windows 8, secure boot, bios etc.

Offline sammy2fish

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 04:57:07 AM »
This Windoze verses other OS's topic.  An oldie but a goodie.

Yes we all know that Windows is the bad guy.  It is fodder for us Linux people.

I only seriously started using Linux, when I was introduced to PCLinuxOS's "big daddy".

Up until then, I was a Dos/Windows person.  Despite ALL the fun we like to have about Windows.... windows 3.1, windows 2000, windows7.... are their only good versions.

I ran windows8 alpha & beta (I'm still a dual-booter).  They are a real let-down.  I think savvy people will hold onto win7 as long as possible.

BUT, we should still respect each others post or opinion, right...?
One of the few things I've learnt as growing older.  Is to choose your battles.. but never loose sight of the war..!

Offline present_arms

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2012, 05:32:54 AM »
I still dual boot, only because i need windows for my phone rom flashing :P as for uefi, I believe you can turn the secure bit off in the "bios" allowing you to install whatever you like, might break windows though, just speculating on that one :)

Offline Tony

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2012, 08:33:55 AM »
Tony
Interesting article and comments.
Unfortunate I fail to see how it relates to Windows 8, secure boot, bios etc.
Basically it doesn't as I qualified my digression:
Quote
3.) Posting 'not about UEFI' to give a taste, maybe, (most certainly) what we may expect.

Quote
They seem to revel in their badness, and it is planned, no doubting that.

As we are in the 'Sandbox', and we've done this topic to death, revisiting MS ethics, and how forgiving consumers are in general to MS for giving such poor service.  ;) They/We are trapped really, more to the truth being the Market leader MS can screw around, as much as they like.
Quote
4.) When I felt they (MS) had probably stabilised their consumer hatred with Win 7, they go and release a new unknown.

Here's a link to page 22 of Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting ; if interested Alfred.
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Offline Alfred

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2012, 02:52:13 PM »
Yes thanks Tony
I have read the link, as this issue is directly effecting me now.
As I have mentioned multiple times, after using Linux for years starting with Suse then Mandriva and in the last 3~4 years PCLinux, I am now in the position for the very first time of being unable to install a Linux OS.
The reality is that unless you just browse the Net, look at pictures and movies etc, Linux will never be able to compete.

As a Comms Technical Officer working at a large corporation, there are simply too many applications and hardware that we need to access on a daily basis, which require Windows software for programming the devices and using professional applications that are absolutely essential to business.

There is one trend that seems to be (too slow) happening which might change this in the far feature, and that is the use of Web access to the devices, which makes them cross-platform compatible.

After using Windows 8 for a few weeks now, it honestly is a dead duck and will never be acceptable to large business.
Our Corporation is just now going to move in the near future to Windows 7 after 18 months of testing.

Offline turk101

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Re: Microsoft to stop Linux, older Windows, from running on Windows 8 PCs
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2012, 04:06:40 PM »
I have a brand new dell laptop that I am wiping off windows 8 and putting on windows 7....for an older gentlemen....friend of mines dad....have a dell branded dvd of windows 7....so wiped it out and putting 7 on it....plus since it is a dell branded dvd of 7...no activation.... ;D ;D 8)......then going to put pclinxos on it to...let him play with both....His dad just couldn"t figure it out...73 years old....so was easier to do this....