Breaking the Taboo

[Jim Dandy]

Not even all cops think that drugs should be criminalized.

http://www.leap.cc/  (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition)

Does anyone seriously believe that there would be so much violence and death associated with cocaine (for example) if it were legal? You don't see people marking out street corners and claiming them, and killing over their territory, to sell alcohol and cigarettes. If drugs were available at a drug store--what a novel idea, eh?--they could be regulated as to purity and those who sell them could inform the user of the potential side effects. I heard a guy say one time that ATF should not be a government agency but a convenience store. I had to agree.

You got it, Jim Dandy! The problem with prohibition, whether you prohibit drugs or alcohol, is that it makes bootlegging so very lucrative. And as the bootleggers by definition are criminals, you can't really regulate how they run their business or what they sell. You can throw a lot of lower-rung pushers in jail, and if you get enough of them off the streets, the resulting scarcity of whatever they used to push will probably make the business even more lucrative for those at the top.

When it comes to cannabis the taboo has had even more serious repercussions in that its medical uses were hardly studied at all for several decades.

Moonshine, as almost everyone knows, is illegal. Not because of what it is but because the guys who make it haven't bothered to pay Uncle Sap the taxes on it so they can throw it away on some foolishness. And because it is illegal it is very expensive. It is expensive not only because it is hard work but also because the guys who make it know that if they get caught transporting it or selling it, it is prison for them. And the same goes true for just about any drug which the government has deemed illegal for whatever reason. Marijuana was demonized because the use of cannabis and the products that could be made from hemp dug deeply into the profits of people like the Dupont family and Randolph Hearst.

Hemp – The Demonization and Media Murder of the Wonder Plant

I don't use (smoke) marijuana or anything else but have nothing against those who do. My interest is to shine a little light on a subject that has been kept in the dark to most people for the benefit of a few "elite" members of society.

[gandy]

You are unhappy with the laws, change them, but understand this others ARE happy with the laws we have.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what this thread is all about.
 

The laws are made because PEOPLE want these laws.

You really should look up the real reasons cannabis was outlawed in the US. As I stated before, cannabis is a schedule 1 drug, the same class as heroin, cocaine is a schedule 2 drug. Does that make sense to you?

More people die from prescription drugs than all the illegal drugs combined. Should we outlaw prescription drugs too? Would that stop people from getting these drugs? Or would it create a black market supply led by hardcore criminals?

First you blamed the use of drugs (as if all drugs are the same) for robberies and murder and said these crimes would skyrocket if they were legalized. The evidence does not support this claim. Later on, you stated  that you don't care if it's legal or not and went on to rant about people blaming others and not accepting responsibility for their actions. Which has nothing to do with the topic.

I know nothing anyone says here will change your mind, but it will give you something to think about. Peace. Out.

[Jim Dandy]

Retired Police Captain demolishes the War on Drugs

[Just17]

Interesting video Jim Dandy .....  thank you 

[bicol_willem]

The problem is, when they smoke in public, the smoke in the air effects others not smoking (tobacco or anything else), so their lifestyle effects others.

Another good reason to ban all autos ...  thanks I had not thought of that aspect .......  their exhaust is millions of times more invasive and deadly to me than all of the output from smokers in this world.

Yeah! Lets clean it up properly!

Right ... electric cars, even way cleaner burning modern steamcars, what keeps them "smoking"?  It can be done.

[Jim Dandy]

Interesting video Jim Dandy .....  thank you 

Glad you liked it--and you're welcome.

[NoIBnds]

You are unhappy with the laws, change them, but understand this others ARE happy with the laws we have.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what this thread is all about.
 

The laws are made because PEOPLE want these laws.

You really should look up the real reasons cannabis was outlawed in the US. As I stated before, cannabis is a schedule 1 drug, the same class as heroin, cocaine is a schedule 2 drug. Does that make sense to you?

More people die from prescription drugs than all the illegal drugs combined. Should we outlaw prescription drugs too? Would that stop people from getting these drugs? Or would it create a black market supply led by hardcore criminals?

First you blamed the use of drugs (as if all drugs are the same) for robberies and murder and said these crimes would skyrocket if they were legalized. The evidence does not support this claim. Later on, you stated  that you don't care if it's legal or not and went on to rant about people blaming others and not accepting responsibility for their actions. Which has nothing to do with the topic.

I know nothing anyone says here will change your mind, but it will give you something to think about. Peace. Out.

I did NOT say legalizing them would not lead to the things I said. They would, alcohol does also, this would just compound the problems. Alcohol is bad, let make MORE bad things legal, and how exactly does that help?? Law Enforcement deals with the abuse of alcohol day in and day out, along with hospitals, social service agencies and government programs. Alcohol is the number 1 abused drug. The legalization of drugs would increase those problems. Legal prescription drugs ARE illegal, without a prescription. You can buy those also illegally and they are abused, that is now becoming a larger and larger problem. They do increase crime problems, I stand by those statements. The war on drugs has also cause massive problems for law enforcement, and those problems will not decrease one bit making marijuana legal. Will make it worse, for DUI enforcement, and other things. Law Enforcement enforces the laws, without regard to personal feelings on whats right or wrong. They will die (and do all the time) defending or protecting people they do not even know, and may not like. When the people have spoken and passed laws, they get enforced. Same way, when they lock someone up for any crime, it goes to court, what the court decides is on the court, not the officer making the arrest. When people would get found not guilty, they feel they "beat" the officer in court, it doesn't work like that. They go in present the case and the verdict of guilt of not guilty is up to the judge or jury. To the officer it is just another hassle of the job, going to court. I still stand by personal responsibility for behavior, whether it's drinking, or doing drugs. When someone screws up, it is on them as they decided to take the substance. I do NOT think taxpayers should be asked to pay for their lifestyle choices. Also there is NO such thing as a victimless crime. The people that use those drugs are responsible for all the problems the drug trade causes.

[Just17]

I did NOT say legalizing them would not lead to the things I said. They would, alcohol does also, this would just compound the problems. Alcohol is bad, let make MORE bad things legal, and how exactly does that help??

You really do need to make up your mind.

Autos are not bad;
Guns are not bad;
it is what people do with them that is bad .......

....  but alcohol is bad; drugs are bad ......

You see no conflict in those arguments?

[NoIBnds]

Interesting video, for a retired police captain from a city of 15,000, who probably had very little experience with any of those problems.
Society changes and it's values change. The drugs of choice change also, in the bigger cities and across the nation, marijuana is not the problem and gets little enforcement except in the dealer and bulk dealer stages. In the rural areas it is meth problem and in the bigger cities is cocaine/crack and pills. Most big cities, marijuana is a ticket and drug school, normally for personal possession of small quantities, or a DUI.

[NoIBnds]

I did NOT say legalizing them would not lead to the things I said. They would, alcohol does also, this would just compound the problems. Alcohol is bad, let make MORE bad things legal, and how exactly does that help??

You really do need to make up your mind.

Autos are not bad;
Guns are not bad;
it is what people do with them that is bad .......

....  but alcohol is bad; drugs are bad ......

You see no conflict in those arguments?

No it is when people consume those items that it is bad, and creates problems.
Like I said what they do in private in their own homes is their own business, when they create problems for others because of the drugs (alcohol is also a drug), THAT is bad. You can carry a gun and be in your right mind, but when you consume drugs, it alters the mind. Go back and I was ALWAYS talking about behavior and personal responsibility.

[Jim Dandy]

Interesting video, for a retired police captain from a city of 15,000, who probably had very little experience with any of those problems.
Society changes and it's values change. The drugs of choice change also, in the bigger cities and across the nation, marijuana is not the problem and gets little enforcement except in the dealer and bulk dealer stages. In the rural areas it is meth problem and in the bigger cities is cocaine/crack and pills. Most big cities, marijuana is a ticket and drug school, normally for personal possession of small quantities, or a DUI.

I think you might have misheard him. If I remember correctly the little burg he worked in had a population of about 80,000, not 15,000. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter if it was 15,000 people or 1,500 people or 15 people, the issue is the same. Do grown people have a right to make any decisions for themselves or should we leave that up to elected officials to decide what is best for us? I say no, they have no right to dictate to me how I will live my life and they have no right to punish me or others if we have harmed no one else. Only statists believe otherwise.

[Just17]

I did NOT say legalizing them would not lead to the things I said. They would, alcohol does also, this would just compound the problems. Alcohol is bad, let make MORE bad things legal, and how exactly does that help??

You really do need to make up your mind.

Autos are not bad;
Guns are not bad;
it is what people do with them that is bad .......

....  but alcohol is bad; drugs are bad ......

You see no conflict in those arguments?

No it is when people consume those items that it is bad, and creates problems.
Like I said what they do in private in their own homes is their own business, when they create problems for others because of the drugs (alcohol is also a drug), THAT is bad. You can carry a gun and be in your right mind, but when you consume drugs, it alters the mind. Go back and I was ALWAYS talking about behavior and personal responsibility.

So, which is it to be then?
Legalise and regulate all the items just as guns, alcohol, and autos are presently, or criminalise all the items as drugs are criminalised presently?

Either, as you stated clearly, you believe those things to be BAD or you don't.

If you don't then they should not be criminalised, but legalised and regulated so that their ability to harm others is reduced to an acceptable level for society.

 

[NoIBnds]

Interesting video, for a retired police captain from a city of 15,000, who probably had very little experience with any of those problems.
Society changes and it's values change. The drugs of choice change also, in the bigger cities and across the nation, marijuana is not the problem and gets little enforcement except in the dealer and bulk dealer stages. In the rural areas it is meth problem and in the bigger cities is cocaine/crack and pills. Most big cities, marijuana is a ticket and drug school, normally for personal possession of small quantities, or a DUI.

I think you might have misheard him. If I remember correctly the little burg he worked in had a population of about 80,000, not 15,000. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter if it was 15,000 people or 1,500 people or 15 people, the issue is the same. Do grown people have a right to make any decisions for themselves or should we leave that up to elected officials to decide what is best for us? I say no, they have no right to dictate to me how I will live my life and they have no right to punish me or others if we have harmed no one else. Only statists believe otherwise.

    But those things harm others, and my answer was that's fine, legalize it. Then when people do other things because of the drugs punish them accordingly. Let's NOT make excuses for their behavior, oh they were drunk or high and didn't know better. Don't expect society to pay for their bad life choices, it is a choice not a disability or illness. So are you for legalizing ALL drugs? Heroin, crack, how about meth, the poor persons speed? Or do we just do some drugs, then we are right back to what this whole discussion was about. Why stop with just marijuana? Isn't it all the same argument-- they have no right to dictate to me how I will live my life and they have no right to punish me or others if we have harmed no one else-- What happens when they harm others? What then, increased penalties, for being under the influence?  

[Just17]

So are you for legalizing ALL drugs? Heroin, crack, how about meth, the poor persons speed? Or do we just do some drugs, then we are right back to what this whole discussion was about. Why stop with just marijuana?

Huh!?

I think you need to go back and read the mission statement which is the basis of this discussion.

[Jim Dandy]

"...Isn't it all the same argument-- they have no right to dictate to me how I will live my life and they have no right to punish me or others if we have harmed no one else-- What happens when they harm others? What then, increased penalties, for being under the influence?" 

Are there penalties now for murder? Yes? And if you live in a state where they use capital punishment exactly how would you "increase the penalties," fry 'em twice? The point is that there are laws on the books--and lo, they are legion!--about harming others and the penalties you might pay if you do so. Should the penalty be greater if you were using a drug when you committed the crime? No, but it shouldn't be any less either.