Breaking the Taboo

[NoIBnds]

Well said, Bald Brick. I don't encourage anyone to smoke marijuana or anything else. But that is a personal thing because of asthma and lung problems. But I also don't tell grown people who we believe are old enough to make some of their own decisions that they shouldn't do this or that. To me the issue is where is the harm? If someone cannot be shown to be harming others then he (or she) should be left alone. More harm has been done by the government in the name of the war on drugs than the drugs themselves have ever caused.

If you look at the number of deaths in auto accidents, just in the USA each year, and about half of the are alcohol related. Most domestic problems are also alcohol or drug related. Society and taxpayers have to pay for the war, OR of the results of the usage. The deaths, health problems. I have seen so many drug related problems, the thefts, murders, muggings, burglaries, just to feed the habit. It would magnify those problems 10 to 100 fold, not decrease them. I have had to pick up the bodies and notify the family, when you find them dead with the needle still in their arm. If society didn't have to bear the results, then fine legalize it. You become a druggie burnout, society leaves you alone to die, no government services. When you commit crimes, you are punished and put to death, Most crime is by a VERY VERY small minority, then yes total freedom to the rest, but alas it does not work that way. So we ALL bear the burdens of the crime waves involved with the drug trade, legal, or illegal. I say make the penalities worse for those that USE or sell drugs then it might make a difference. Don't just go after the sellers, go after the users also. Make it a total war!

Many more people have died (long term) from smoking a legal product (cigarettes) than die from illegal drugs. At any rate, when people are old enough to be sent to wars and kill or be killed it should be presumed that they might be capable of making their own decisions about other things in life. I don't advocate "society" paying the costs for someone's chosen lifestyle but I also don't advocate punishing them before they actually harm someone else. That is what takes us down a slippery slope, to punish people for what they "might" do.

The problem is, when they smoke in public, the smoke in the air effects others not smoking (tobacco or anything else), so their lifestyle effects others. Same with alcohol or drugs, what they do in private effects them, when they drive under the influence and get in accidents and hurt others or commit crimes to "feed the habit" it effects others. SO then behavior OUTSIDE the home has an effect on others, what about MY rights not to breath the smoke filled air, or drive on the road with DUI drivers.

[Jim Dandy]

Not even all cops think that drugs should be criminalized.

http://www.leap.cc/  (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition)

Does anyone seriously believe that there would be so much violence and death associated with cocaine (for example) if it were legal? You don't see people marking out street corners and claiming them, and killing over their territory, to sell alcohol and cigarettes. If drugs were available at a drug store--what a novel idea, eh?--they could be regulated as to purity and those who sell them could inform the user of the potential side effects. I heard a guy say one time that ATF should not be a government agency but a convenience store. I had to agree.

[Jim Dandy]

"The problem is, when they smoke in public, the smoke in the air effects others not smoking (tobacco or anything else), so their lifestyle effects others. Same with alcohol or drugs, what they do in private effects them, when they drive under the influence and get in accidents and hurt others or commit crimes to "feed the habit" it effects others. SO then behavior OUTSIDE the home has an effect on others, what about MY rights not to breath the smoke filled air, or drive on the road with DUI drivers."

Few people smoke in public anymore, at least the places I go to. Smoking has pretty much been banned just about everywhere outside people's own homes and cars. I used to smoke and I used to smoke a lot but I didn't become worse than a reformed hooker when I quit, never have told other people that their smoking bothers me. If it bothers me enough I will find a way to get away from it.

As for your right not to drive on the road with DUI drivers I don't know where you will find that Utopia. There are laws against dui and some fairly substantial penalties against it. But if you think you can live in a society where everyone will not drink and drive just because there is a law against it, good luck with that. I go out knowing that there is a good chance I might meet someone else on the road who might have had a bit more than he can handle and I drive defensively all the time. It has served me fairly well.

[Just17]

If you look at the number of deaths in auto accidents, just in the USA each year, and about half of the are alcohol related.

Ban all autos  and "make the penalities worse for those that USE or sell" them.

Problem solved!

LOL! Right on. And chairs, they are killers too. Especially those that roll around. It is likely that someone wasn't watching what he was doing and rolled one of those right down the steps and broke his neck. Maybe we should just all be put in rubber rooms in solitary confinement and naked. That way we can't hurt ourselves.

Oh you are welcome to hurt yourself ......  but you cannot have one of those chairs because you might hurt me!

See?

Problems are easily solved.

.....  and for those that continue to disobey the chair rule we can go with NoIBnds philosophy ....

When you commit crimes, you are punished and put to death

Yep! easily solved!

[Just17]

The problem is, when they smoke in public, the smoke in the air effects others not smoking (tobacco or anything else), so their lifestyle effects others.

Another good reason to ban all autos ...  thanks I had not thought of that aspect .......  their exhaust is millions of times more invasive and deadly to me than all of the output from smokers in this world.

Yeah! Lets clean it up properly!

[Jim Dandy]

Oh you are welcome to hurt yourself ......  but you cannot have one of those chairs because you might hurt me!

See?

Problems are easily solved.


I got it. But see, some of us are more humane and don't want other people to hurt themselves, even if it is their own choice. See, we know better about their life than they do. 

[gandy]

They do NOT lock them up as you say, I have locked up people that after being fingerprinted their arrest sheets show they have been arrested, CONVICTED and sent to prison and been released MULTIPLE times for murder, and lots of other offenses. So there is no punishment, and tons of social services. Nice when you cite statistics and feel all warm an noble, but when you have to see and deal with the real victims of it day in and day out, the families of those murdered, the people that come home and find the house broken in and trashed and possessions stolen and have no answer except what we call justice. Then you tend to get all hard about it. Isn't Portugal going broke also, right behind Greece. NOTHING is free, and those services and freebies will come to a crashing halt.

I agree that murderers should not be released from prison after 7 years or so.

You just made my point. The prisons are full of non-violent offenders. That's the reason that violent offenders are set free too soon.

The point that was made earlier is a strong one. Alcohol prohibition created more criminals by making a substance, that many people want, illegal. When something that people want is illegal, the price goes up along with violence. There will always be someone willing to break the law if there is a large profit to be made. When the Eighteenth Amendment was repealed, the profit margin was removed so the gangsters got out of that business.

Yes, lock people up for burglary, theft, arson, rape and murder etc. and keep them locked up for an appropriate length of time, not for possession or distribution of controlled substances.

You are correct in saying that I've never worked i law enforcement but I have known people who now have a felony conviction for possession that will remain with them for the rest of their lives. These people are not criminals, in the larger sense of the term, but, by the legal definition, they are and always will be.

 

[Bald Brick]

Not even all cops think that drugs should be criminalized.

http://www.leap.cc/  (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition)

Does anyone seriously believe that there would be so much violence and death associated with cocaine (for example) if it were legal? You don't see people marking out street corners and claiming them, and killing over their territory, to sell alcohol and cigarettes. If drugs were available at a drug store--what a novel idea, eh?--they could be regulated as to purity and those who sell them could inform the user of the potential side effects. I heard a guy say one time that ATF should not be a government agency but a convenience store. I had to agree.

You got it, Jim Dandy! The problem with prohibition, whether you prohibit drugs or alcohol, is that it makes bootlegging so very lucrative. And as the bootleggers by definition are criminals, you can't really regulate how they run their business or what they sell. You can throw a lot of lower-rung pushers in jail, and if you get enough of them off the streets, the resulting scarcity of whatever they used to push will probably make the business even more lucrative for those at the top.

When it comes to cannabis the taboo has had even more serious repercussions in that its medical uses were hardly studied at all for several decades.

[gandy]

What's ironic is that cannabis is a schedule 1 drug, along with heroin,  and cocaine is schedule 2. 

[Just17]

Of course there is the other side to regulated supply, as is done with cigarettes and alcohol ......  and that is governments like to tax such things very heavily ..... which can result in a huge difference in price between the legal and illegal supply ......  bringing back the illegal suppliers almost as much as prohibition ......

[NoIBnds]

I do NOT care whether it is legal or illegal, what people do in private is their OWN business. I just do not think society should then be punished to pay for their choices. If it is ok, then it is not a sickness, no more disability, no more social services. They chose it let them deal with it. When they commit other crimes because of it, they should NOT be able to use the excuse, I was under the influence, it should be an aggravating cause, NOT a mitigating one.  Cars and their exhaust benefits society as a whole and not just the individual (trucks moving goods, tractors feeding the world, etc), smoking is only for that person. I was pointing out the hypocrisy, ban smoking in public but it is ok to smoke marijuana-- same group promoting both. The Police HATE the war on drugs, and would love to get out of it. Would create lots of other problems for the police, but the drug wars have drained manpower and resources, and got a LOT of police killed. When someone shoots someone, it is NOT the guns fault, it is that persons fault. I blame that person, I do not blame the gun, or the auto or the chair. Do not punish others for the behavior of someone else. This society wants to blame something or someone else, and not the one that did the crime. The hypocrisy of the war on drugs is we go after the sellers and forgive the users. The users are the problems. Bad dope gets on the street, and some users die, and it's like wringing of the hands and lets get the bad dope dealers that sold it to them. Drugs kill, so if you take illegal drugs and die, that is the cost of doing drugs. Same as the people that do stupid stuff and get in really bad places and expect someone else to risk their lives to rescue them. Get out a storm is coming, they stay and storm comes and then they want others to risk their lives to get them out at height of the storm, KNOWING they should have left before that. Make it legal and tax it hard and make some money for all these social programs. Then lookout dealers that sell it illegally, the Government will be after you for the taxes!!!   

[NoIBnds]

You are correct in saying that I've never worked i law enforcement but I have known people who now have a felony conviction for possession that will remain with them for the rest of their lives. These people are not criminals, in the larger sense of the term, but, by the legal definition, they are and always will be.

BUT it was THEIR choice and KNEW it was illegal before they did it. I feel no sympathy, it was their choice. There are a lot of things I would like to do, but don't because it is illegal. That person made a choice to do something illegal. Bet he blames the person that arrested him and the courts and everyone else, BUT the real culprit, themselves!!

[joechimp]

I don't need to be protected from people on drugs  or drinkers or smokers.

Save me from the texters on the road. I am not saying this to be funny. I can count almost every day on the road that I see an almost accident from a texter.

I don't know how you will stop any of it.
Just MHO

[gandy]

You are correct in saying that I've never worked i law enforcement but I have known people who now have a felony conviction for possession that will remain with them for the rest of their lives. These people are not criminals, in the larger sense of the term, but, by the legal definition, they are and always will be.

BUT it was THEIR choice and KNEW it was illegal before they did it. I feel no sympathy, it was their choice. There are a lot of things I would like to do, but don't because it is illegal. That person made a choice to do something illegal. Bet he blames the person that arrested him and the courts and everyone else, BUT the real culprit, themselves!!

Yes, just like many other young people do, they broke the law. I commend you for never breaking the law, EVER. Not very many people can say that.

[NoIBnds]

You are correct in saying that I've never worked i law enforcement but I have known people who now have a felony conviction for possession that will remain with them for the rest of their lives. These people are not criminals, in the larger sense of the term, but, by the legal definition, they are and always will be.

BUT it was THEIR choice and KNEW it was illegal before they did it. I feel no sympathy, it was their choice. There are a lot of things I would like to do, but don't because it is illegal. That person made a choice to do something illegal. Bet he blames the person that arrested him and the courts and everyone else, BUT the real culprit, themselves!!

Yes, just like many other young people do, they broke the law. I commend you for never breaking the law, EVER. Not very many people can say that.

We all do at times in our lives. BUT we make the decision to break it, and when we do things we KNOW is wrong or illegal we have no one to blame but ourselves.
 Ask Tex how he feels living next to people on Meth. The laws are made because PEOPLE want these laws. You are unhappy with the laws, change them, but understand this others ARE happy with the laws we have.
   I AGREE on the texting, but hard to enforce as people feel they have a right to do it -- there is that freedom thing again, and others dangers to one persons freedom.