Breaking the Taboo

[ppiklapp]

I always shudder when the government use the term "The War On ......" because it is a battle they truly will not fight.  So we, the people, will lose without a real shot being fired.  After all, America has had a War on Poverty for over 50 years and the problems have only got worse.

Governments has only one real goal: Make sure the rich got richer all the time (alas, they work for the rich) and in hard times like we see now in i.e. Europe that means simply introducing more poverty. Take away all from the poor workers, including benefits and social security in order to make sure the rich are not harmed and.... they will have cheaper labor in the end, adding to their fortunes.. DON´T even think to tax the rich to help a bit!!!    (OK, OK, Vive La France, they do at the moment!)

From the looks of things lately, that isn't flying too well anywhere.  Riots in Greece and Italy.  Germans starting to rise up in protest.  Occupy Movement expansion across US and EU.   Rumors of US Congress holding negotitions in secret, but scared because they are one wrong move from a non-fiscal cliff.

[bicol_willem]

I always shudder when the government use the term "The War On ......" because it is a battle they truly will not fight.  So we, the people, will lose without a real shot being fired.  After all, America has had a War on Poverty for over 50 years and the problems have only got worse.

Governments has only one real goal: Make sure the rich got richer all the time (alas, they work for the rich) and in hard times like we see now in i.e. Europe that means simply introducing more poverty. Take away all from the poor workers, including benefits and social security in order to make sure the rich are not harmed and.... they will have cheaper labor in the end, adding to their fortunes.. DON´T even think to tax the rich to help a bit!!!    (OK, OK, Vive La France, they do at the moment!)

From the looks of things lately, that isn't flying too well anywhere.  Riots in Greece and Italy.  Germans starting to rise up in protest.  Occupy Movement expansion across US and EU.   Rumors of US Congress holding negotitions in secret, but scared because they are one wrong move from a non-fiscal cliff.

Well they will win anyway. Once protests and strikes are going to cost them too much, they send your "friend" the police to beat you up and worse. If that fails the army will do the dirty job. These 2, police and army, are not at the side of the people in general, willing or not. Just watch the news on TV for confirmation of the above.

[ppiklapp]

I always shudder when the government use the term "The War On ......" because it is a battle they truly will not fight.  So we, the people, will lose without a real shot being fired.  After all, America has had a War on Poverty for over 50 years and the problems have only got worse.

Governments has only one real goal: Make sure the rich got richer all the time (alas, they work for the rich) and in hard times like we see now in i.e. Europe that means simply introducing more poverty. Take away all from the poor workers, including benefits and social security in order to make sure the rich are not harmed and.... they will have cheaper labor in the end, adding to their fortunes.. DON´T even think to tax the rich to help a bit!!!    (OK, OK, Vive La France, they do at the moment!)

From the looks of things lately, that isn't flying too well anywhere.  Riots in Greece and Italy.  Germans starting to rise up in protest.  Occupy Movement expansion across US and EU.   Rumors of US Congress holding negotitions in secret, but scared because they are one wrong move from a non-fiscal cliff.

Well they will win anyway. Once protests and strikes are going to cost them too much, they send your "friend" the police to beat you up and worse. If that fails the army will do the dirty job. These 2, police and army, are not at the side of the people in general, willing or not. Just watch the news on TV for confirmation of the above.

I guess you missed the story about the police, I forgot where in Europe, who grabbed the hoses to use on striking Dairy Farmers and ended up blasted by a high pressure hose full of milk.

What are they going to do when the soldier looks across the line and sees his friends and family looking back at him?  That soldier is going to either change sides or go nuts.  Either way he will be useless to the regime.

[Waldo22]

I have to say I think we are heading down a slippery slope here...  Politics is rearing its ugly head....     

[NoIBnds]

Well said, Bald Brick. I don't encourage anyone to smoke marijuana or anything else. But that is a personal thing because of asthma and lung problems. But I also don't tell grown people who we believe are old enough to make some of their own decisions that they shouldn't do this or that. To me the issue is where is the harm? If someone cannot be shown to be harming others then he (or she) should be left alone. More harm has been done by the government in the name of the war on drugs than the drugs themselves have ever caused.

If you look at the number of deaths in auto accidents, just in the USA each year, and about half of the are alcohol related. Most domestic problems are also alcohol or drug related. Society and taxpayers have to pay for the war, OR of the results of the usage. The deaths, health problems. I have seen so many drug related problems, the thefts, murders, muggings, burglaries, just to feed the habit. It would magnify those problems 10 to 100 fold, not decrease them. I have had to pick up the bodies and notify the family, when you find them dead with the needle still in their arm. If society didn't have to bear the results, then fine legalize it. You become a druggie burnout, society leaves you alone to die, no government services. When you commit crimes, you are punished and put to death, Most crime is by a VERY VERY small minority, then yes total freedom to the rest, but alas it does not work that way. So we ALL bear the burdens of the crime waves involved with the drug trade, legal, or illegal. I say make the penalities worse for those that USE or sell drugs then it might make a difference. Don't just go after the sellers, go after the users also. Make it a total war!

[NoIBnds]

I always shudder when the government use the term "The War On ......" because it is a battle they truly will not fight.  So we, the people, will lose without a real shot being fired.  After all, America has had a War on Poverty for over 50 years and the problems have only got worse.

Governments has only one real goal: Make sure the rich got richer all the time (alas, they work for the rich) and in hard times like we see now in i.e. Europe that means simply introducing more poverty. Take away all from the poor workers, including benefits and social security in order to make sure the rich are not harmed and.... they will have cheaper labor in the end, adding to their fortunes.. DON´T even think to tax the rich to help a bit!!!    (OK, OK, Vive La France, they do at the moment!)

All governments soak the rich to buy votes with the poor, to give them things for their votes. In the USA the rich pay about 90% of the taxes. Those are facts, no matter how much someone says they don't pay their fair share. In the USA ANYONE can be rich, no matter where they start in life. There are so many avenues in the USA to become rich. Look at Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Zuckenberg, all the hollywood types, music moguls, I can go on but you get the idea. If you failed to become rich, it is not the governments fault, it is your own. I am NOT rich, not even close, but that is on me, not anyone else. I do not dislike or hate or envious of others, because they did better then I, I am happy with what I did do. How would anyone feel if the government took 70% or more of anything you had or earned? Why is it ok to do it to someone else (the rich) if you would not want it done to you? I believe in lead by example, ALL should have a stake in it. So in one part of the this thread it is government get out of everyones life, no regulation, then it is they did better then I did and are rich, so take away their stuff and give it to me.

[Just17]

If you look at the number of deaths in auto accidents, just in the USA each year, and about half of the are alcohol related.

Ban all autos  and "make the penalities worse for those that USE or sell" them.

Problem solved!

[gandy]

I have seen so many drug related problems, the thefts, murders, muggings, burglaries, just to feed the habit. It would magnify those problems 10 to 100 fold, not decrease them.

There are real-world statistics that disagree with that statement.

Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal

Drug warriors often contend that drug use would skyrocket if we were to legalize or decriminalize drugs in the United States. Fortunately, we have a real-world example of the actual effects of ending the violent, expensive War on Drugs and replacing it with a system of treatment for problem users and addicts.

The number of addicts considered “problematic” — those who repeatedly use “hard” drugs and intravenous users — had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

[NoIBnds]

If you look at the number of deaths in auto accidents, just in the USA each year, and about half of the are alcohol related.

Ban all autos  and "make the penalities worse for those that USE or sell" them.

Problem solved!

Bet you are an anti-gun person also. Go after the inanimate object, instead of what causes it.

[NoIBnds]

The funniest thing is it is the same groups that want to ban cigarette smoking, now want to legalize pot. So government stopping cigarette smoking BAD, pot smoking good.
BIG government telling people foods they can eat, not smoke, government healthcare, housing, childcare, etc, etc good. Government trying to enforce drug laws BAD. Trying to follow the logic here a bit, and it is difficult.

[NoIBnds]

I have seen so many drug related problems, the thefts, murders, muggings, burglaries, just to feed the habit. It would magnify those problems 10 to 100 fold, not decrease them.

There are real-world statistics that disagree with that statement.

Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal

Drug warriors often contend that drug use would skyrocket if we were to legalize or decriminalize drugs in the United States. Fortunately, we have a real-world example of the actual effects of ending the violent, expensive War on Drugs and replacing it with a system of treatment for problem users and addicts.

The number of addicts considered “problematic” — those who repeatedly use “hard” drugs and intravenous users — had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

 My point was if they want the freedom to do these things, then do NOT expect society to pay for the results. When they fail, let them fail, legalize it, BUT do not provide any government services to repair or help those that are destroyed, just lock them up for the crimes they commit and PUNISH them the users. Why should an alcoholic or druggie be considered disabled, and get government assistance? They CHOSE that, let them and their families deal with it. They kill someone, let them pay the ultimate price also.

[gandy]

The reason the Portugal model works is that they DO provide support for individuals with addiction problems. They try to cure the addiction instead of punishing the individual.

Your "just lock them up" has been in effect for decades. It hasn't worked. The prisons are full of non-violent offenders. Isn't that a high cost to society? Prison creates convicts that eventually are released back into society then have trouble finding jobs. They, more often than not, return to what got them locked up or worse because of what they learned in prison.

[NoIBnds]

They do NOT lock them up as you say, I have locked up people that after being fingerprinted their arrest sheets show they have been arrested, CONVICTED and sent to prison and been released MULTIPLE times for murder, and lots of other offenses. So there is no punishment, and tons of social services. Nice when you cite statistics and feel all warm an noble, but when you have to see and deal with the real victims of it day in and day out, the families of those murdered, the people that come home and find the house broken in and trashed and possessions stolen and have no answer except what we call justice. Then you tend to get all hard about it. Isn't Portugal going broke also, right behind Greece. NOTHING is free, and those services and freebies will come to a crashing halt.

[Jim Dandy]

Well said, Bald Brick. I don't encourage anyone to smoke marijuana or anything else. But that is a personal thing because of asthma and lung problems. But I also don't tell grown people who we believe are old enough to make some of their own decisions that they shouldn't do this or that. To me the issue is where is the harm? If someone cannot be shown to be harming others then he (or she) should be left alone. More harm has been done by the government in the name of the war on drugs than the drugs themselves have ever caused.

If you look at the number of deaths in auto accidents, just in the USA each year, and about half of the are alcohol related. Most domestic problems are also alcohol or drug related. Society and taxpayers have to pay for the war, OR of the results of the usage. The deaths, health problems. I have seen so many drug related problems, the thefts, murders, muggings, burglaries, just to feed the habit. It would magnify those problems 10 to 100 fold, not decrease them. I have had to pick up the bodies and notify the family, when you find them dead with the needle still in their arm. If society didn't have to bear the results, then fine legalize it. You become a druggie burnout, society leaves you alone to die, no government services. When you commit crimes, you are punished and put to death, Most crime is by a VERY VERY small minority, then yes total freedom to the rest, but alas it does not work that way. So we ALL bear the burdens of the crime waves involved with the drug trade, legal, or illegal. I say make the penalities worse for those that USE or sell drugs then it might make a difference. Don't just go after the sellers, go after the users also. Make it a total war!

Many more people have died (long term) from smoking a legal product (cigarettes) than die from illegal drugs. At any rate, when people are old enough to be sent to wars and kill or be killed it should be presumed that they might be capable of making their own decisions about other things in life. I don't advocate "society" paying the costs for someone's chosen lifestyle but I also don't advocate punishing them before they actually harm someone else. That is what takes us down a slippery slope, to punish people for what they "might" do.

[Jim Dandy]

If you look at the number of deaths in auto accidents, just in the USA each year, and about half of the are alcohol related.

Ban all autos  and "make the penalities worse for those that USE or sell" them.

Problem solved!

LOL! Right on. And chairs, they are killers too. Especially those that roll around. It is likely that someone wasn't watching what he was doing and rolled one of those right down the steps and broke his neck. Maybe we should just all be put in rubber rooms in solitary confinement and naked. That way we can't hurt ourselves.