PCLinuxOS - Phoenix Edition: SERIOUS Installation Problem

[lhb1142]

Within the last two or three days, a serious installation problem has appeared with PCLinuxOS Phoenix Edition. I am using the same PCLinuxOS XFCE 2012.02 disc I have used on numerous previous occasions.

While I won't go into details as to the reasons I wished to reinstall the system (they are not relevant to this discussion), I decided to effect a clean installation of PCLOS Phoenix Edition (Xfce Desktop Environment) onto my two computers on which I have the system installed.

When doing this, I always first 'wipe' the computer(s) with DBAN and, after that process is finished, I boot up with the Live CD, select Install PCLinuxOS, and, during the installation process, I select Custom Partitioning, creating an encrypted < / > partition of about 12 GB, a swap space of about 4 GB, and the rest of the drive(s) normally. (I wish to have an encrypted hard disk and, the first time I did what I describe above on one of my computers, the process proceeded perfectly and the system worked without incident.)

After installation is complete and upon booting up, after the system is completely installed, I go into Synaptic, adjust the repository (adding  the special section and removing the 4 from kde4), and I update the system.

Previously this method has always worked perfectly.

Not so in the past two days.

I have tried the installation (a total now of four times) on two (2) different computers and have gotten the same results each time on both.

The installation itself proceeds properly and, when I boot up, the system appears.

I reboot "just to make sure" and again the boot process work perfectly.

But when I go into Synaptic and update the program, the updating goes fine and everything continues to work perfectly until I restart the computer.

I then get the following message (in a dialog box):

You are attempting to run "drak3d" which requires administrative privileges, but more information is needed in order to do so

Authenticating as < user name >
Password

Once I enter my password, another dialog box appears (with a place to enter your choice of one of two options):

3D Desktop effects
No 3D desktop effects
Compiz Fusion
Cancel        OK

Regardless of which choice I make, I receive the following message in another dialog box:

Please reboot if you have changed the video drive or enabled/disabled Pulse Audio. For all other settings log out and back in again.

Then I am taken back to the login screen and the entire process repeats.

In other words, I am caught in a login loop and I cannot access the system.

The last time I tried reinstalling and, before updating, I went into Synaptic and removed < drak3d > (two components and one of them took MyLiveCD along with it). But then updating and trying to reboot, put me into another (different) loop. (This different loop is not important as obviously removing < drak3d > did not help the situation.)

This is terrible, especially for someone new to PCLOS trying to install the program, and it renders PCLOS Phoenix Edition completely useless to me.

I have 'wiped' both of my computers with DBAN and I await the answer(s) to this problem from the Administrators (whom I hope see this thread and can act upon the problem).

I really want to have PCLinuxOS Phoenix Edition on two (soon three) computers but if this problem persists, well it's back to a 'buntu for me.

I hope that a solution is forthcoming; if there is one, perhaps a new .iso disc is in order.

Thank you for your consideration.

Lawrence

[ghostbunny]

Just pressing reload and mark all updates without looking what will happen isn't the best idea especially if there comes a whole environment update.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110824.msg945826.html#new

[sparerep]

Lawrence, I use Phoenix, so I did a little test since what happened to you will affect my ability to upgrade.

I did a fresh install from my 2012.02 CD in a VB and upgraded it from my local repo which is current to 11/7. 258 updates and everything went OK!

Then, I switched to an on-line repo and reloaded. It showed several additional upgrades, including xfce4-various packages, some of which were to version 4.10. Applying all additional upgrades resulted in Phoenix going down in flames.

I was sure the repo I selected was http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/, but....

So, I reinstalled from my 2012.02 CD and upgraded locally again, hoping to get a clue what was doing the damage. When I selected http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/ there were only four additional upgrades and none of them were xfce4-related. Upgrading three of those (skipping Flash) went good.

But looking at various repos, I see http://ftp.heanet.ie is one with the additional packages at 11/14-23:03 California time.

So you might try again and see if you can locate a repo with a shorter list of packages to upgrade, looking especially for the xfc4-xxx-4.10 packages and not using that repo.

Not a good solution, but maybe you can get functional again.

Tom

[ghostbunny]

Lawrence, I use Phoenix, so I did a little test since what happened to you will affect my ability to upgrade.

I did a fresh install from my 2012.02 CD in a VB and upgraded it from my local repo which is current to 11/7. 258 updates and everything went OK!

Then, I switched to an on-line repo and reloaded. It showed several additional upgrades, including xfce4-various packages, some of which were to version 4.10. Applying all additional upgrades resulted in Phoenix going down in flames.

I was sure the repo I selected was http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/, but....

So, I reinstalled from my 2012.02 CD and upgraded locally again, hoping to get a clue what was doing the damage. When I selected http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/ there were only four additional upgrades and none of them were xfce4-related. Upgrading three of those (skipping Flash) went good.

But looking at various repos, I see http://ftp.heanet.ie is one with the additional packages at 11/14-23:03 California time.

So you might try again and see if you can locate a repo with a shorter list of packages to upgrade, looking especially for the xfc4-xxx-4.10 packages and not using that repo.

Not a good solution, but maybe you can get functional again.

Tom

mh  did you read the announcement i linked to?

I think the obsolete stuff causes this so it needs to be uninstalled at first, which is done by just marking libxfce4util for update.

[lhb1142]

Just pressing reload and mark all updates without looking what will happen isn't the best idea especially if there comes a whole environment update.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110824.msg945826.html#new

Dear ghostbunny,

But this is an intolerable situation. Do you realize what it means to people like me who are not "Linux-masters" but merely ordinary users?

All I want to do is to use PCLOS and have it work 100% of the time - and that means without going through a lot of unnecessary hoops.

Why would updates which will 'break' the system even be put into the repository in the first place? While I realize that those running the system are unpaid volunteers with only a limited amount of time to work on it, it seems to me that updates within the repository should be tested and be known to be fully compatible with their applicable programs. (This includes the updates that 'broke' the palimpsest [Gnome Disk Utility] program.) If an update is not fully compatible, it should not be put into the repository until it can be made fully compatible.

At least this is my opinion.

In the current situation, I cannot know from day to day whether or not my operating system will be fully functional. When I start my computer (with any Linux distro I happen to be using), the first thing I do - always - is to update the system. I do this daily and I expect that only improvements will be made. I do not expect something that may 'break' my system (and yes, I know that sometimes it inadvertently happens, but that is rare, at least with the 'buntus and, with them, it is fixed quickly [it hasn't happened in a couple of years]).

As for effecting a complete re-installation of PCLOS and then having to manually select or deselect what is to be upgraded, well, as I said before, again in my opinion, this is an intolerable situation.

I shall continue to monitor this forum in the hope that someone can adjust the repository (and, by the way, I use the default http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/ repository) such that updating it will work automatically, as intended.

Thank you for writing and I sincerely hope that something can be done - and quickly. The two computers in question (the ones on which I had been using PCLOS) are computers we take on trips and I won't actually need them until next year. (I had been using them extensively so that I could learn as much as possible about the PCLOS distribution which I like very much.) I am leaving them totally 'wiped' - that is, with no OS installed - in the hope that PCLOS can soon be fixed such that I am able to install it again, upgrade it again, and use it again - simply and easily - and that I can be fully confident in the stability of the OS.

Lawrence

[JohnW_57]

A update from a 9 months old iso is never recommended so I guess the Phoenix 2012.02 is too old to get a correct update.
When XFCE 4.10 was in testing it was already discovered that the upgrade path was broken and could be solved by: http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110824.0.html

With updating from KDE 4.6.5 to KDE 4.8.3 there were a lot more issues met (broken packages) and could be solved with:
http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,108162.0.html.

A lot users were satisfied with this method and could solve to get KDE 4.8.3.

Maybe I do suggest to Neal to remove the Phoenix 2012.02 iso  from Ibiblio and the mirros (too old).
The recommend way for while to download 1 of the mini isos and use the task-xfce4/xfce4-plugins to install the desktop.
Hopefully there's a brand new PCLinuxOS XFCE4 iso soon!

JohnW

[daniel]

Maybe I do suggest to Neal to remove the Phoenix 2010.02 iso  from Ibiblio and the mirros (too old).
The recommend way for while to download 1 of the mini isos and use the task-xfce4/xfce4-plugins to install the desktop.
Hopefully there's a brand new PCLinuxOS XFCE4 iso soon!

+1

[ghostbunny]

Just pressing reload and mark all updates without looking what will happen isn't the best idea especially if there comes a whole environment update.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110824.msg945826.html#new

Dear ghostbunny,

But this is an intolerable situation. Do you realize what it means to people like me who are not "Linux-masters" but merely ordinary users?

All I want to do is to use PCLOS and have it work 100% of the time - and that means without going through a lot of unnecessary hoops.

Why would updates which will 'break' the system even be put into the repository in the first place? While I realize that those running the system are unpaid volunteers with only a limited amount of time to work on it, it seems to me that updates within the repository should be tested and be known to be fully compatible with their applicable programs. (This includes the updates that 'broke' the palimpsest [Gnome Disk Utility] program.) If an update is not fully compatible, it should not be put into the repository until it can be made fully compatible.

At least this is my opinion.

In the current situation, I cannot know from day to day whether or not my operating system will be fully functional. When I start my computer (with any Linux distro I happen to be using), the first thing I do - always - is to update the system. I do this daily and I expect that only improvements will be made. I do not expect something that may 'break' my system (and yes, I know that sometimes it inadvertently happens, but that is rare, at least with the 'buntus and, with them, it is fixed quickly [it hasn't happened in a couple of years]).

As for effecting a complete re-installation of PCLOS and then having to manually select or deselect what is to be upgraded, well, as I said before, again in my opinion, this is an intolerable situation.

I shall continue to monitor this forum in the hope that someone can adjust the repository (and, by the way, I use the default http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/ repository) such that updating it will work automatically, as intended.

Thank you for writing and I sincerely hope that something can be done - and quickly. The two computers in question (the ones on which I had been using PCLOS) are computers we take on trips and I won't actually need them until next year. (I had been using them extensively so that I could learn as much as possible about the PCLOS distribution which I like very much.) I am leaving them totally 'wiped' - that is, with no OS installed - in the hope that PCLOS can soon be fixed such that I am able to install it again, upgrade it again, and use it again - simply and easily - and that I can be fully confident in the stability of the OS.

Lawrence

Just to let you know we worked nearly two month on it to get it working like it should. The obsolete stuff and Synaptic are the problem because Synaptic marks the updates in the order of there appereance and not in the order like it is needed. In this case i can't do anything except pointing to the only solution and this is a manual marking of the packages. I already work on a new iso but i'm not a magican.

Also an alternativ is to use a kde or lxde mini and install task-xfce there and than uninstall the packages from the other environment.

[Neal ManBear]

Just pressing reload and mark all updates without looking what will happen isn't the best idea especially if there comes a whole environment update.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110824.msg945826.html#new

Dear ghostbunny,

But this is an intolerable situation. Do you realize what it means to people like me who are not "Linux-masters" but merely ordinary users?

All I want to do is to use PCLOS and have it work 100% of the time - and that means without going through a lot of unnecessary hoops.

Why would updates which will 'break' the system even be put into the repository in the first place? While I realize that those running the system are unpaid volunteers with only a limited amount of time to work on it, it seems to me that updates within the repository should be tested and be known to be fully compatible with their applicable programs. (This includes the updates that 'broke' the palimpsest [Gnome Disk Utility] program.) If an update is not fully compatible, it should not be put into the repository until it can be made fully compatible.

At least this is my opinion.

In the current situation, I cannot know from day to day whether or not my operating system will be fully functional. When I start my computer (with any Linux distro I happen to be using), the first thing I do - always - is to update the system. I do this daily and I expect that only improvements will be made. I do not expect something that may 'break' my system (and yes, I know that sometimes it inadvertently happens, but that is rare, at least with the 'buntus and, with them, it is fixed quickly [it hasn't happened in a couple of years]).

As for effecting a complete re-installation of PCLOS and then having to manually select or deselect what is to be upgraded, well, as I said before, again in my opinion, this is an intolerable situation.

I shall continue to monitor this forum in the hope that someone can adjust the repository (and, by the way, I use the default http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/ repository) such that updating it will work automatically, as intended.

Thank you for writing and I sincerely hope that something can be done - and quickly. The two computers in question (the ones on which I had been using PCLOS) are computers we take on trips and I won't actually need them until next year. (I had been using them extensively so that I could learn as much as possible about the PCLOS distribution which I like very much.) I am leaving them totally 'wiped' - that is, with no OS installed - in the hope that PCLOS can soon be fixed such that I am able to install it again, upgrade it again, and use it again - simply and easily - and that I can be fully confident in the stability of the OS.

Lawrence

     
Where were you during the testing period of the new version of XFCE4? It went on for a couple of months.     
Any road, upgrading an ISO that is around 9 or 10 months old is inadvisable with a continuously changing (i.e. rolling release) system. There are just too many changes. The older the ISO, the more likely it is that something will break. There is no way that we can provide a way around that.     

Our good ghostbunny has been and is working hard on XFCE for our members who use it. The problem with upgrading phoenix is in no way due to his work.     

Phoenix has been removed now as it is too old to be upgraded.     

[lhb1142]

Just pressing reload and mark all updates without looking what will happen isn't the best idea especially if there comes a whole environment update.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110824.msg945826.html#new

Dear ghostbunny,

But this is an intolerable situation. Do you realize what it means to people like me who are not "Linux-masters" but merely ordinary users?

All I want to do is to use PCLOS and have it work 100% of the time - and that means without going through a lot of unnecessary hoops.

Why would updates which will 'break' the system even be put into the repository in the first place? While I realize that those running the system are unpaid volunteers with only a limited amount of time to work on it, it seems to me that updates within the repository should be tested and be known to be fully compatible with their applicable programs. (This includes the updates that 'broke' the palimpsest [Gnome Disk Utility] program.) If an update is not fully compatible, it should not be put into the repository until it can be made fully compatible.

At least this is my opinion.

In the current situation, I cannot know from day to day whether or not my operating system will be fully functional. When I start my computer (with any Linux distro I happen to be using), the first thing I do - always - is to update the system. I do this daily and I expect that only improvements will be made. I do not expect something that may 'break' my system (and yes, I know that sometimes it inadvertently happens, but that is rare, at least with the 'buntus and, with them, it is fixed quickly [it hasn't happened in a couple of years]).

As for effecting a complete re-installation of PCLOS and then having to manually select or deselect what is to be upgraded, well, as I said before, again in my opinion, this is an intolerable situation.

I shall continue to monitor this forum in the hope that someone can adjust the repository (and, by the way, I use the default http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/ repository) such that updating it will work automatically, as intended.

Thank you for writing and I sincerely hope that something can be done - and quickly. The two computers in question (the ones on which I had been using PCLOS) are computers we take on trips and I won't actually need them until next year. (I had been using them extensively so that I could learn as much as possible about the PCLOS distribution which I like very much.) I am leaving them totally 'wiped' - that is, with no OS installed - in the hope that PCLOS can soon be fixed such that I am able to install it again, upgrade it again, and use it again - simply and easily - and that I can be fully confident in the stability of the OS.

Lawrence

     
Where were you during the testing period of the new version of XFCE4? It went on for a couple of months.     
Any road, upgrading an ISO that is around 9 or 10 months old is inadvisable with a continuously changing (i.e. rolling release) system. There are just too many changes. The older the ISO, the more likely it is that something will break. There is no way that we can provide a way around that.     

Our good ghostbunny has been and is working hard on XFCE for our members who use it. The problem with upgrading phoenix is in no way due to his work.     

Phoenix has been removed now as it is too old to be upgraded.     

Dear Neal ManBear,

I discovered PCLinuxOS only this past August, long after any testing period was completed. I first tried the KDE 'flavor' and I just do not like KDE. (I had the same experience with K-----u.) I am sure that most people do indeed like KDE but not me.

Then I decided to try the Xfce version; this is fully satisfactory (at least for me). (My 'buntu systems are X-----u and U----n Studio, both of which use the Xfce Desktop Environment.) Unfortunately (again, for me), there are only three ways I learn things: Read about programs, etc. on forums such as this one (and 'Googling' any other questions), ask direct questions on forums such as this one (and this forum is the best of any I have ever used!), and try different things. This last often causes breakage of my system - but once that happens, I know what I did, and I know not to do it again.

I constantly (generally daily) back up my files, documents, pictures, etc. and it is (or has been) an easy process to merely effect a 'clean' re-installation and then copy back those files.

This time, obviously, I could not effect a 'clean' installation with my 2012.02 disc (nor, I believe, can anyone else without going through major 'hoops'). I am glad I reported this and that you have taken down that .iso.

Until now, with PCLOS Phoenix. I didn't realize that this sort of thing can happen with a 'rolling-release' type of distribution (nor was I aware that Synaptic itself might be part of the problem).

I hope that ghostbunny can create a new (and hopefully more stable) version of the PCLOS Phoenix Edition .iso which I shall download and try on at least one of my computers. If it is, as I hope, satisfactory, I shall install it on two of the three computers we take with us when we travel (but I'll keep a 'buntu on one of them "just in case").

I like PCLOS very much - except for the fact that a) standard updating 'broke' palimpsest [Gnome Disk Utility] (I hope this can be fixed on the new .iso) and b) MakeMKV is not yet an 'official' program on PCLOS (though Archie has been kind enough to create a package each time the program is updated).

I expect that, in the future, as I pretty much had my system configured the way I wanted it prior to my 'breaking' it, I shall not try anything new (I know what I like and need); that way I should hope that the system will not be broken going forward.

I hope too that, if there is another major environment update (or a major update in anything else), that a notice marked "Important" (for the environment in question - KDE, Xfce, LXDE) can be posted prominently (perhaps the first item) on the forum which one will see when first accessing the forum; when another .iso is created, negating any untoward effects, this notice can be taken down.

Thank you for writing to me and for your and ghostbunny's explanations. I want you to know that I very much appreciate all the work you do and all the time you spend helping me (and all others).

I look forward to being a happy PCLOS user again.

Lawrence

[Neal ManBear]

lhb1142,     
I have no idea the number of times it has been posted that older ISOs should not be used, but it is a lot.
There is only so much testing that we can do. We can only test on the hardware that we have. This includes our community testers, as well as our packagers.     
As for palimpsest, per this thread, it is not broken. Not all users have a problem with it. Your statement that "standard updating 'broke' palimpsest" is not correct. You may have a problem with it, but it is not broken. Errors do happen. We do our best to fix these before they happen, but there is no way for us to test on every possible system setup or on every possible hardware configuration.     

[lhb1142]

lhb1142,     
I have no idea the number of times it has been posted that older ISOs should not be used, but it is a lot.
There is only so much testing that we can do. We can only test on the hardware that we have. This includes our community testers, as well as our packagers.     
As for palimpsest, per this thread, it is not broken. Not all users have a problem with it. Your statement that "standard updating 'broke' palimpsest" is not correct. You may have a problem with it, but it is not broken. Errors do happen. We do our best to fix these before they happen, but there is no way for us to test on every possible system setup or on every possible hardware configuration.     

Dear Neal ManBear,

PLEASE do not misunderstand me. I am not criticizing the work you and the others do on behalf of us users of PCLOS. As I stated, I very much appreciate that which you do.

May I please make a suggestion (and it's a suggestion only)?

If and when it is decided to make a major environmental update (such as a new Xfce or new KDE Desktop Environment, for example), I believe that this update should not be put into the repository until a new .iso disc is available for downloading.

There are two reasons for my suggestion:

1) In the event that someone finds it necessary to reinstall the operating system, he/she will be unable to do so if this major upgrade is placed into the repository prior to a new .iso being offered (as has happened to me), and,

2) If a person who has newly discovered PCLOS and decides he or she wants to try it, and this upgrade is in the repository but only the older .iso disc is all that is available for downloading, well, that person is going to be awfully frustrated and may decide to forget PCLOS altogether.

That would be a shame.

I'm glad I reported this problem here and I'm glad that you have removed the older .iso disc. While I have read a great deal on this forum, somehow I missed your warning about not using an older .iso disc.

But consider this: it was still available for downloading on the main site so who would think that it could not be used? Do you see where I'm coming from?

I hope that you will consider my suggestion regarding creating a new .iso at the same time that a major upgrade is placed into the repository.

I understand that your time is limited.

All I am asking is that you not put something in the repository which will effectively 'break' a new installation prior to a new .iso disc is prepared. If we have to wait for a major upgrade until such time as the disc can be prepared, that, in my opinion, is a small price to pay.

Waiting until the disc can be released is better than possibly losing, to frustration, a potential PCLOS user.

Thank you for considering my opinions.

I also thank you for producing and maintaining this excellent Linux distribution.

And I have to say: I am learning a great deal about Linux and rolling releases in general and PCLOS in particular.

Lawrence

[Neal ManBear]

lhb1142,     
In a couple months of testing, there was no breakage when upgrading. Yes, there were some issues to be sorted out, and they were - before moving the packages out of testing. Not one tester reported the system being broken.     

Yea. I get your point. But how was I supposed to know that your system would break? Testing did not reveal that.     

Creating a new ISO is not just a few mouse clicks. It takes work. It is all very well to say, "Just create a new ISO," when it isn't you doing the work. But it does take time and work.     

The Bacon Brigade is a great team. I love working with them. But there are not a lot of them, and they already give more of their time and work than you might understand. This team is very dedicated and goes above and beyond. They deserve respect and thanks for their work.     
Don't misunderstand me. I think I understand your point. You appear to assume that we were negligent. We were not. Overworked maybe but not negligent. There are only 24 hours in a day. Sometimes we must put off doing something till later - we prioritize.     

As we have had no XFCE maintainer, and as we have the meta-packages (task packages) for adding it to newer ISOs, we have not set creating a new XFCE ISO as a priority. Sorry if that offends, but we are a small team with a lot of work to be done.     

[lhb1142]

lhb1142,     
In a couple months of testing, there was no breakage when upgrading. Yes, there were some issues to be sorted out, and they were - before moving the packages out of testing. Not one tester reported the system being broken.     

Yea. I get your point. But how was I supposed to know that your system would break? Testing did not reveal that.     

Creating a new ISO is not just a few mouse clicks. It takes work. It is all very well to say, "Just create a new ISO," when it isn't you doing the work. But it does take time and work.     

The Bacon Brigade is a great team. I love working with them. But there are not a lot of them, and they already give more of their time and work than you might understand. This team is very dedicated and goes above and beyond. They deserve respect and thanks for their work.     
Don't misunderstand me. I think I understand your point. You appear to assume that we were negligent. We were not. Overworked maybe but not negligent. There are only 24 hours in a day. Sometimes we must put off doing something till later - we prioritize.     

As we have had no XFCE maintainer, and as we have the meta-packages (task packages) for adding it to newer ISOs, we have not set creating a new XFCE ISO as a priority. Sorry if that offends, but we are a small team with a lot of work to be done.     

Dear Neal ManBear,

"Negligent"? No! "Offends [me]"? Again, no!

Perhaps you misunderstood me; perhaps I did not make myself clear. I hope that this is clear:

I very much respect and appreciate all of the work that goes into the creating and maintaining of PCLOS. I cannot be a part of the creation/maintenance team as I personally have no computer knowledge. I can use what others create but I cannot create anything myself.

That said, I feel an obligation to report something to you which may be amiss. If I do not do so, and if no one else does either, how are you going to know? As you state, you can't test everything.

I just received a personal e-mail (on this forum) this morning. I should like to quote it:

"Hi - just letting you know that I agree with you regarding the broken xfce update. How are you supposed to know certain things about an OS if you've never used the OS before? It's hard right now because the xfce version doesn't have a full-time maintainer. Neal is a good guy, but he does get a little testy at times   Anyway, I'm glad I discovered your post. I'm running PCLOS xfce on my laptop and haven't updated it for about a week. I will probably leave it that way for now, since I've read other reports of users with fully updated systems having problems with the latest update [emphasis mine]. Good luck & hope you stick around - pclos is a very nice OS and worth checking out.  I've been using it since v.93 back in 2006. cheers, ..."

Evidently I'm not the only person to whom this 'breakage' has happened; however I appear to be the only one who has reported it to you.

I sincerely hope that you will consider my suggestion made previously that you do not put anything major into the repository unless and until a corresponding new Live CD (.iso) disc can be produced. That's all I'm asking and I'm asking that so that a situation such as this does not recur.

If, due to the fact that there is no permanent maintainer of Xfce and the time it takes to create a new .iso disc, certain updates cannot be added to the repository as soon as you would like (and therefore we users would have to do without them for a while), that is really a very small 'price' to pay in return for stability and for the benefit of any potential new users of PCLOS.

That is my opinion.

I hope you will regard all of this in the spirit in which it is intended: as constructive criticism and a suggestion for you to consider, nothing more. It is definitely not intended as denigration of you, the other developers, and all the work (and, believe me, I know it is considerable) that you and they do.

If I am out of line, I apologize sincerely.

I can't repeat it enough: I very much appreciate all the work you and the other developers do on behalf of PCLOS and us, the users.

Thank you.

Lawrence

[lhb1142]

And to clarify even further:

I understand that change is inevitable and it's welcome. What I'm actually asking (suggesting) is that new, major, upgrades be put into the Testing Section --- and left there until such time as a new Live CD (.iso disc) can be created.

Once the disc is available, then the suitable programs can be put into the general repository.

That way those who are quite sophisticated can test and use newer programs within PCLOS while the rest of us just "muddle along" using older versions (for example, Xfce 4.8 rather than Xfce 4.10).

By the way I did actually test one program: PDFsam, which I had suggested and which is now an 'official' PCLOS program.

So I feel as if I have contributed my very small bit to the improvement of the OS. That's not to say that my contribution is even 0.001% of what you and the developers do and for which I thank you.

Lawrence