New Users,,, New Standards?

[Rudge]

We get new users at the forum all the time. And with them come the old questions and the old concerns and we give them all the old "canned" answers.

I read something tonight that raised one of my brows (as in Mr. Spock,, "interesting")

What follows is a post from someone whom I consider a friend, I am sure many can say the same. But it raises some questions.

a) Do we "hand feed" newcomers with knowledge that they should learn how to gather on their own?
 
or

b) Should we gently lead them into the direction of how they can help themselves?

This is not presented as a "Poll" because I want to hear discussion on the matter.

Below is a link to the original post that I am referring to and it's context, the original poster pointed out the fact that it was "not the sandbox" but I wanted to know more about the posts that may have been generated if it WAS in the sandbox.
  
Sorry Archie. You know I don't mind if you "TZ" this one. LOL

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110531.0.html

Having read Mr. Torvald's "off the cuff" comments throughout the years, I may have a slightly different interpretation or probably just my runaway imagination when readng "beneath/between the lines".

We all know how he enjoys lambasting developers ... more particularly DE developers. More recently, it was KDE4 then Gnome3. I think this time he's gone a bit too much to hit on the users themselves stopping short of calling us stupid because we have to set our desktops in such a way that they look "cartoony" to him as he prefers ... what was his word? BORING!

He does have a point but like the great Linux Divide, he did miss some important facts. Linux DEs have become too easy in recent years that new users are dumb down. The learning curve that earlier migrants from Windows have been just road bumps instead of the steep learning curve of a mountain the early immigrants had to climb.

It is good that many more Windows users are moving into Linux ... finally realizing that there is existence without the Windows OS. And as with the habit brought along, recent Linux users are failing miserably on one important aspect.

We all know the fish proverb ... Give a man a fish and he shall eat for a day; teach a man to fish and with his fish and chips business he'll build an empire. Grin  Well, something along that line anyway.

I'm not saying ... if I am saying anything ... that new users shouldn't ask for help in the forum. What I am saying is Linus has a point. Setups should be boring and not "cartoony". Perhaps this could get users to do more research, use the search box more, read more online howtos ... rather than be lazy, and whenever a road bump is inconveniently thud, ASK the forum before the research and searches because that's easier.

I am aware that it is snowballing down the hill ... but there's still a solution before it wrecks our perfect snowtux. Bust the rumbling snowball into teeny-weeny flakes and make sure that the next question asked in this forum had already been searched before any of us provide the fix ... look here then post back. Yes, it's time we stage a period of RTFM.

Only when there's been an effort on the user asking question am I going to provide guidance.

Sorry for the rant ... and sorry it has to be on this thread ... it's true that we're using our mouths (or fingers) more than we are using our brains. I know I broke a forum rule in regards to relevant replies and this isn't even the Sandbox.

I've seen enough "cartoony" PCLinuxOS users ... we could do better and pride ourselves with "smarter" users (who know how to search first).

[Archie]

We get new users at the forum all the time. And with them come the old questions and the old concerns and we give them all the old "canned" answers.

I read something tonight that raised one of my brows (as in Mr. Spock,, "interesting")

What follows is a post from someone whom I consider a friend, I am sure many can say the same. But it raises some questions.

a) Do we "hand feed" newcomers with knowledge that they should learn how to gather on their own?
 
or

b) Should we gently lead them into the direction of how they can help themselves?

This is not presented as a "Poll" because I want to hear discussion on the matter.

Below is a link to the original post that I am referring to and it's context, the original poster pointed out the fact that it was "not the sandbox" but I wanted to know more about the posts that may have been generated if it WAS in the sandbox.
 
Sorry Archie. You know I don't mind if you "TZ" this one. LOL

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,110531.0.html

Having read Mr. Torvald's "off the cuff" comments throughout the years, I may have a slightly different interpretation or probably just my runaway imagination when readng "beneath/between the lines".

We all know how he enjoys lambasting developers ... more particularly DE developers. More recently, it was KDE4 then Gnome3. I think this time he's gone a bit too much to hit on the users themselves stopping short of calling us stupid because we have to set our desktops in such a way that they look "cartoony" to him as he prefers ... what was his word? BORING!

He does have a point but like the great Linux Divide, he did miss some important facts. Linux DEs have become too easy in recent years that new users are dumb down. The learning curve that earlier migrants from Windows have been just road bumps instead of the steep learning curve of a mountain the early immigrants had to climb.

It is good that many more Windows users are moving into Linux ... finally realizing that there is existence without the Windows OS. And as with the habit brought along, recent Linux users are failing miserably on one important aspect.

We all know the fish proverb ... Give a man a fish and he shall eat for a day; teach a man to fish and with his fish and chips business he'll build an empire. Grin  Well, something along that line anyway.

I'm not saying ... if I am saying anything ... that new users shouldn't ask for help in the forum. What I am saying is Linus has a point. Setups should be boring and not "cartoony". Perhaps this could get users to do more research, use the search box more, read more online howtos ... rather than be lazy, and whenever a road bump is inconveniently thud, ASK the forum before the research and searches because that's easier.

I am aware that it is snowballing down the hill ... but there's still a solution before it wrecks our perfect snowtux. Bust the rumbling snowball into teeny-weeny flakes and make sure that the next question asked in this forum had already been searched before any of us provide the fix ... look here then post back. Yes, it's time we stage a period of RTFM.

Only when there's been an effort on the user asking question am I going to provide guidance.

Sorry for the rant ... and sorry it has to be on this thread ... it's true that we're using our mouths (or fingers) more than we are using our brains. I know I broke a forum rule in regards to relevant replies and this isn't even the Sandbox.

I've seen enough "cartoony" PCLinuxOS users ... we could do better and pride ourselves with "smarter" users (who know how to search first).

I'm sure that I'm gonna get a lot of phoeey from that post but I just gotta say it out loud. But before anybody else goes on with BBQing me, I'd like to ask a question ... did you think that rant was for my own benefit? Or did you think it was an elitist rant? If you think it was the second then I'm sorry but you don't know me as well as I thought you do.

If you think it was the neither the first then for whose benefit? I am more inclined to your option b) but in the condition that you try and learn to ride your bicycle as hard as you could and be not afraid of a few knee scratches. If you want to learn to ride your bicycle and have me or any of our good people in the community as your trainer (wheel) then I do not agree with that. That would be either you're just lazy or stupid and you don't deserve to use Linux. Go back to Mac or Windows.

But to the extent of an effort where you'd learn a few things along the way but still cannot sort out your issues, hey, I'll try my darn best to help.

I've come across bundles and bundles of posts that I just skip because the first few sentences already reveal that the users did not even search for answers.

"Hey, how can I change themes? Font sizes blah blah..." It's all here in the forum. If I can tell T6 to mellow down with his post  counts and not reply to those type of posts ... I probably still wouldn't.

I like to help our users with their problems ... but IMO they should help themselves first. If we can all Google then there's a very good chance we can find answers to many of our issues.

No, I'm not perfect and never will be but at least I got the sense to try things out myself first before I post for assistance. And sure everybody can't be like me ... but don't we all have some sort of common sense?

I'm stepping on a few toes. It had been long-coming. Who knows maybe this rant can put some sense into the few who reads it; maybe not.

We all had or RTFMs. I got mine from Tex but that really slapped me awake. Neal later told me that Tex does these things not because he just felt like telling me to RTFM. Neal said that Tex had faith that I could do it.

I'm sure those who'd get their toes stepped on can also do it. I don't care what you'd think of me after this.

I'm not sending this to TZ. And whether this is the Sandbox or elsewhere in another section, the gravity of the situation needed a rant.

[Crow]

Why do we need to have a "standard" way of acting regarding new comers?  if you only have a hammer sooner or later all will start to look like a nail.

New comers are people, people is diverse and that is also true for the veterans in the forum, maybe some won't like to guide others step by step or even if they do maybe they will get bored by the same questions over and over, the easiest way out is not to answer those threads and allow others to do the job; repeating "do a proper search" is not the way to treat them, one time is all they need.

There are others in this forums that are specially gifted for the task (hi O-P  :-) )  and have patient enough (most of the time) to do it.

I agree, new Linux users should learn to look for answers and many will do but all they will get to that point at different times just because we are all different.

[CaptainSarcastic]

I think that there has to be a balance, and I try to approach each instance as a unique situation.  Sometimes, some people and/or some questions do need an RTFM answer.

Other times, a brief answer, providing a link or a jumping-off point for a search are enough.

I think that expecting a certain level of effort be made by newbies is appropriate, but so is providing support and assistance.  I just think that the determination has to be made on a case-by-case basis.

The more <solved> question threads, the more there is to search on, and the better the web of answers.

Also, truth be told, I find that the search function on the forum is often not terribly useful.  It is not the most refined nor reliable tool.

[Rudge]

Perhaps "RTFM" needs to be "Re-acronymed"  into "HTRTM". . .   (How To Read The Manual)  

[aguila]

Well, I do agree with Archie here.

When somebody really screwed up, lending a hand to get them back on the road is only fair.

But I do expect people to use the forum search before posting just like I do. Then, if they come and ask, I think showing them the way is absolutely okay, but if I feel that they are not trying to learn from the matter, but only want someone to fix it for them, they should really better go back to Win or Mac and call the commercial help-line.

The "payment" users who ask for help should have to do is "learn about Linux, then help others". There are too many freeloaders out there (we call them "Freibiergesichter" in Germany ). Unfortunately, too few ever pay back. But then, doesn't it make the world a little better when there are actually people paying back that you helped off the ground?

So I think, Crow is right, we can't divide people in good and bad only. But the ones who are afraid to get their feet wet should maybe not stay too long in Linux sea.

[aguila]

Perhaps "RTFM" needs to be "Re-acronymed"  into "HTRTM". . .   (How To Read The Manual)  

I think very often it's more about WTFTFM (Where to find the f... manual)....

...which brings us back to forum search...

[Rudge]

Perhaps "RTFM" needs to be "Re-acronymed"  into "HTRTM". . .   (How To Read The Manual)  

I think very often it's more about WTFTFM (Where to find the f... manual)....

...which brings us back to forum search...

Searching for a problem fringes on an art.

Some are better at it than others. In a lot of cases, the searcher is simply unable to find any info related to their problem. They are "search handicapped".

I have fallen prey to it myself. (Doing several searches, giving up, asking the question, only to be directed to several threads on the subject)

The "Search" option, in real life, is not all it's cracked up to be.

[taelti]

Some people have a deportment to help, help, help and give more help. And then after all is said and done, help some more and more. ......... There may be many of them in PCLos. ...........

[Just17]

There are IMO a few things that have not been taken into account in Archie's 'rant'.
With those exceptions I would be inclined to agree.

1.   New users might not be familiar with forums and how they operate. I recall that PCLOS was the first forum I ever posted in and I had not a clue how to post properly or any of the other 'niceties' that are now automatic.

2.   I was not aware of others having similar thoughts/problems/whatever until after I had posted.

3.   The search capability on the forum is good .....  IF you
  a)   know how to use it to get the best out of it
  b)   know EXACTLY what you are looking for, and can be specific in your search terms.
A new user will not be familiar with either of those.

So, even for a new user who is quite prepared to put in a little work themselves, it can be frustrating or even impossible for them, if they are not familiar with the environment they are posting in.
We tend to forget that there are a lot of people who do not use social media, forums and such like, in their daily lives.

When they come to this forum they are entering an alien environment and are essentially lost in the wilderness.
Unfamiliar territory, and even worse, unfamiliar words and terms.
Answers which seem basic to those familiar with PCLOS, can be indecipherable to a new user.

One of the more frustrating things that happen, IMO, is when help is offered, and some info is requested, that request is not complied with for whatever reason ....  the new user missed the question; doesn't know how to provide the answer and is afraid to say so; or is too damned lazy ----  and the helper has no real way of knowing which, at least initially.

.....  my own pet hate ...... trying to help someone with a difficult problem, doing the research and posting a few suggestions and receiving a reply days or a week later (sometimes as brief as 'that didn't work') .......  HELLO!  I have forgotten all about your problem, moved on with my life (such as it is) and am not inclined to do the research all over again to figure out what might be going on, or even read the whole thread again to re-familiarise myself with the problem. {yeah, sometimes memory is not all it could be  }

In short there are lots of pitfalls for both sides .....  the user with the problem and those who try to help.

I don't believe there is a 'quick fix' for those problems .......

[Jalbindi]

The challenge we have is we don't have the standards that our counterparts (Microsoft or Apple) have when it comes to troubleshooting and this I believe stems from the fact we do not do a "Customer Support" addition to distro's. If we take Apple (As I prefer their method) and their support communities they have extensive problems already with written solutions. So users don't need to ask forum questions because all they can do is search the support section.

We however have a forum and so get repeated questions. What we need (Maybe we have?) is a support page with all of these problems resolved and then all we do is link to it. We're not blocking new users from resolving their problems and we're not repeating ourselves over and over. I dunno, I just woke up so I might not make much sense

[scoundrel]

there is a quick fix.. be patient .. be helpful ... be your pclinuxos family best .. and .. be it known that if I see an RTFM .. I will beat you so badly that you'll wish you hadn't the digits to type with.

[Phil]

Suggestion - On the PCLinuxOS-Forums landing page maybe have a few lines in various places suggesting doing a search first.

During my linux journey I have asked many idiotic questions. Some people have told me to RTFM and others have patiently given me the answer. Amazingly these days I sometimes know the answer to questions, and so will post a reply even though I know it has been covered many times. Do not be surprised if I ask many more idiotic questions, even though I tend to search first using google and the forum.

There are many different types of people. Pleased to help some, sometimes I just keep clear.

[tschommer]

Isn't the help page the proper place to refer new users to?

[Lone Stranger]

I am a member of a keyboard players' forum that constantly has the same newbie questions being asked.  Unfortunately there are "self appointed" mods who flame the newbies off the forum, tell them the RTFM or use the search function and discourage them from posting again.  Unfortunately that forum's search function is a pile of crap and does not do what it is supposed to do.  One workaround is doing a Google search but having Google search that forum only.  Since I use Ixquick I have not tried it out.  Perhaps a sticky in the welcome center about this may help.  In the case of the music players' forum the Google search set to look in that forum works much better than the forum's own search function.