Author Topic: Can't decide - can you help?  (Read 2839 times)

Offline zolar1

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Can't decide - can you help?
« on: August 11, 2012, 11:07:16 PM »
I want to build a new box.

Here is the CPU I looked at:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0388577

Here is the motherboard I looked at:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0387627

If those seem OK what about memory?

I would want PC3 (12800).

See here:
http://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.phtml?N=4294966965

I plan on using my existing SSD drives, video card (older one, but works pretty well - GS 9300 I think) and box/power supply.

I probably will be forced to use wireless. Can someone pick one for me from www.microcenter.com site?
I was the longest range I can get with the fastest speed. 350mb/s or faster if possible.


If you have a better combo please let me know. I do like the MOBO ability to do RAID 0,1,5,10.

BTW, anyone do a RAID with SSD's? Is it even necessary other than data integrity?

This will probably be the last box I will ever build due to the forced cloud computing that is coming.

We do typical things - email, surfing, playing online games, watching a few movies.

My existing RIG is an old AMD 4200+ with 3.5gb RAM, dual channel, DDR
It works OK, but it is rather OLD, like me.


Any suggestions on combo's would be great. Not too much interested in overclocking. Just want a nice, fast, stable box that PCLOS and maybe MINT can run on. I will probably have to run my XP in a VM unless I get 4gb modules and pull the extras out when wanting to use XP. I might want to convert DVD's back and forth. It takes a long time with my existing rig.

Is a single 8gb memory module better than 2-4gb memory modules in dual channel mode?
PCLOS doesn't use much memory at all but most modules sold now are a minimum of 4gb.


And yes, I still need XP for quite some time to come yet.

Do I need 2x4gb modules or what??

I do was the memory specs I posted above though.

I have about 2 weeks till I think I am able to buy the components.

Please note: I won't be able to take any part of it back so it has to be right the first time.
Nearest Microcenter to where I am going is many hours of driving, no credit card either.
Nice being debt free, but a big hassle trying to buy online.


Offline gseaman

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 11:56:15 PM »
Your old rig is vastly superior to my main machine. My wife is using a nice quad core Athlon, but that is another story.  ::) ;) All that I can tell you if from what I've read. I would not pay a penny for over 4gb of memory unless I planned to run virtual machines full time. Whether you use one 8gb ram card versus 2x4gb cards is only an issue if you plan to increase your memory later.

To be completely honest, every desktop machine sold today would be fast enough for me, especially with an ssd drive. I would go to Costco, pick the best deal and return it if anything fails. I have built machines before, but I don't see much reason for it anymore.

Galen

Offline zolar1

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2012, 12:20:02 AM »
Your old rig is vastly superior to my main machine. My wife is using a nice quad core Athlon, but that is another story.  ::) ;) All that I can tell you if from what I've read. I would not pay a penny for over 4gb of memory unless I planned to run virtual machines full time. Whether you use one 8gb ram card versus 2x4gb cards is only an issue if you plan to increase your memory later.

To be completely honest, every desktop machine sold today would be fast enough for me, especially with an ssd drive. I would go to Costco, pick the best deal and return it if anything fails. I have built machines before, but I don't see much reason for it anymore.

Galen


You are correct in that most machines you buy today are fast.

However, I don't want a Dell or any other premade computer because you are extremely limited in your upgrades and are at their whim for everything else.

My rig I have upgraded many times over the years.
I found 2 video cards that do not use fans for cooling - heat sinks only.
Although the video cards are minimal at least I never have to worry about fan failure and not being able to buy a replacement fan - I tried. No one sells them.

I like the option of running a RAID 5 or even adding multiple hard drives. With store bought one's you can't get those options. I can add 6 hard drives to my box if I wanted to and buy 'real' power supplies and not brand specific one's like eMachines used to make you buy.

While my box is still good, the capacitors do have a limited life span and they are getting close to the end of life. Old boxes had capacitors that lasted nearly a lifetime. The newer the capacitors the shorter the life span. 5 years is generally acceptable.

When building a new box I can upgrade at a whim, replace individual components as they fail, add/subtract items, etc.

About memory - eventually Linux will begin to use more and more memory over the next 5 years as software will require it. Years back everyone thought that 32mb was standard and 128mb meant you were rich. I spent $400 on my 1st 128mb memory module. Money well spent at the time as it made the computer more stable and much faster (Win98 SE). I discovered that 384mb was the sweet spot for the computer as programs didn't use that much.

I would like to run a VM from time to time. With more than 4gb RAM I would have to with XP. Or keep this box as a XP only box for times I need it.

I was wondering if a single memory module was faster than two memory modules in dual channel.

As I stated above, eventually we all will be going to forced cloud computing. Just a matter of time and no one will have any control over what OS they will use nor what is done with their online data.

It makes economic sense to force cloud computing. FAR less energy needed to do computing, faster too. More reliable against data loss.

Give it another 5-7 years yet, if the world don't come crashing down onus before then (economic disaster - world wide great depression).

Spend it now while you go the chance. Money will be worthless soon due to hyperinflation.

Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions as to what I requested above?

I can spend $500 on a new desktop or build a really good one for the same price.

Laptops/notebooks are worthless to me. Mere toys. Too fragile and batteries are awful. No way to upgrade individual components either.


Offline gseaman

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 12:39:53 AM »
I am confident that you will find the specifics that you need to build the system that you want. I wasn't discouraging you from your project, but was just saying that building a custom system doesn't interest me anymore. I will respectfully disagree on two points, however. First, although in the past os's have grown in memory requirements even faster than memory prices have fallen ;), I think that trend is slowing, possibly to a halt. There are a lot of efforts to increase the efficiency of memory use in the kernel, desktop and user applications. Part of this is because of the advent of smart phones, tablets, etc., but also there is concerns for laptop power consumption. This work will benefit desktop users experience as well and it is still progressing. Second, the cloud will not be forced upon anyone and will find it's place for some uses and users, but will be limited.

Galen

Offline zolar1

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 12:47:55 AM »
I am confident that you will find the specifics that you need to build the system that you want. I wasn't discouraging you from your project, but was just saying that building a custom system doesn't interest me anymore. I will respectfully disagree on two points, however. First, although in the past os's have grown in memory requirements even faster than memory prices have fallen ;), I think that trend is slowing, possibly to a halt. There are a lot of efforts to increase the efficiency of memory use in the kernel, desktop and user applications. Part of this is because of the advent of smart phones, tablets, etc., but also there is concerns for laptop power consumption. This work will benefit desktop users experience as well and it is still progressing. Second, the cloud will not be forced upon anyone and will find it's place for some uses and users, but will be limited.

Galen


I hope you are right, but knowing how governments and corporations try to control everything, and based on the direction we all are going, it will be inevitable that we all will be forced into cloud computing.

Look at the DMCA. It was passed without so much as a single public vote. Now look at the ramifications of everything?

Motherboards are designed to ask for 'permission' for you to do much with anything copyrighted.

Cloud computing will prevent 99.9% of all copyright infringement since they will have full control and make you pay what THEY make you pay. And you have no say at all.

Look at China and Australia? Both have country firewalls that control what you can see and do.

Other countries will follow suit.


But this is a topic for another thread.


Smart Phones, tablets, and the like - all that is cloud computing.

Online Old-Polack

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 02:27:52 AM »
zolar1:

Getting back to your original question, I have a few questions of my own.

1. Are you married to an Intel setup?

2. Are you aware that there have been quite a few reports of driver problems, using Linux, with either Intel or AMD CPU/GPU combined processors? A separate CPU with either a discrete video card, or GPU built into the MB, is still the safest bet.

3. Have you considered getting a debit card from your present bank?

4. Assuming you don't have problems with the idea of a debit card, would you consider buying online?

I cut up my credit cards close to 30 years ago, and won't have one now, but a debit card costs nothing, and carries no interest payments. You are limited to what you have in your account, and effectively it works like an instantly cashed electronic check. I buy a lot from Newegg, have had only one item that needed replacement because of defects on arrival, (since 2003) and they paid for shipping both ways for the return of the defective part and shipping the replacement. I was buying individual parts for a new build, only when there were sales and special discounts, and the returned item was a motherboard. They had the replacement delivered to me before I had made the last of the upgrade purchases, so It didn't actually hold up the final build. I buy from other online sources too, but my experience with Newegg has been such that most of what I have purchased during the last three years has come from them.

On the plus side, you don't have to drive anywhere, (no gasoline cost) you can get bargain prices by shopping online deals, everything is delivered to your door, there are no sales taxes if you order from a company that has no physical presence in your state, for most states, and a lot of the parts are also shipped free, so all the saving do mount up.

The only item on the minus side, for me, is waiting three of four days to have the parts in my hand. I may wait months to find the right price for a specific planned purchase, but once I've made that purchase, I want it now!  ;D

Last November, on black Friday, Newegg had a one day special on high speed gamers RAM and offered a16 GB package of DDR3-1600 for $60.00. I wasn't even thinking of a new build, until I saw that, then bought it, an AMD FX 4100 four core CPU, a Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3 motherboard, and a new Samsung SATA DVD burner for a total of $290.65, with free shipping. Since then I've been buying individual parts for a friend, whenever I see a serious bargain special, and have duplicated the preceding, with the addition of an Antec 550 watt modular PS for a total of $303.27. The only thing left to get for his build is a video card, which I'm currently watching out for. His machine is built, and running fine, with a spare video card of mine temporarily in place, for testing purposes. He is also using his existing case and hard drives, and would use his old video card, except it's an AGP slot card.

What's the final recap of the story? AMD usually gives you more bang for the buck than Intel, online shopping isn't as scary as it sounds, bargains abound, if you just have a little patience, the stores are open for business 24/7/365, and the parts come to you, rather than the other way around. Everything gets sale priced at some time, and it's almost like playing a game, spotting those sales.  ;D
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Offline zolar1

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 08:25:18 AM »
Old-Polack, I have used both Intel and AMD CPU's. I tend to like AMD better. They seem more stable. I was reading that the i-core intels are better than AMD cpu's.

Can you provide me a link that says one way or the other?

I don't have a credit card or debit card. I won't be here long enough to get either if I wanted one nor long enough to wait for them to deliver it probably.
If they do deliver it I surely don't want it delivered to my front door. My downstairs neighbor steals mail and the neighborhood will steal anything the UPS driver leaves by the front door.
The neighborhood is so bad that if they can't get into a mailbox to get what they want they steal the whole mailbox.

I was hoping that someone here had some recent experience building a new 'modern' computer and any caveats they might have.

Online Old-Polack

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 02:30:21 PM »
Old-Polack, I have used both Intel and AMD CPU's. I tend to like AMD better. They seem more stable. I was reading that the i-core intels are better than AMD cpu's.

Can you provide me a link that says one way or the other?

I don't have a credit card or debit card. I won't be here long enough to get either if I wanted one nor long enough to wait for them to deliver it probably.
If they do deliver it I surely don't want it delivered to my front door. My downstairs neighbor steals mail and the neighborhood will steal anything the UPS driver leaves by the front door.
The neighborhood is so bad that if they can't get into a mailbox to get what they want they steal the whole mailbox.

I was hoping that someone here had some recent experience building a new 'modern' computer and any caveats they might have.

That does put a major kink in that plan then. ;D

I mentioned it because my son almost had to whack me up along side the head to get me to get a debit card. Because of previous bad experiences with credit card companies, the idea of any plastic card didn't sit right with me. Now, I've had the same $20.00 bill in my wallet, just in case, for about three months, and it's the only cash I carry. I've had the debit card for nine years, and use it for everything.

I'm retired, so at home most of the time, live in the county, outside of the city proper, have neighbors that are some distance away, and have my computer desk next to a window facing the street, so I see the UPS truck coming, and am at the door waiting when the packages get delivered. The thought of neighbors stealing deliveries left at the door didn't even enter my mind until you mentioned it. That alone puts a damper on that idea. Sorry about that.

My take on the Intel/AMD thing is that Intel currently is the leader in top of the line chips, (ie work accomplished in a given amount of time)  but their prices are out of line for the most part, for all the mid range chips. Reviewers like to compare chip vs chip starting from the top down, and that stacks the deck in Intel's favor. The truth is, we don't all need top of the line computing power, with no regard to price. We all have a budget we use to balance what we desire with what we can afford. If one compares, not on a chip vs chip basis, but rather what computing power can I get for x number of dollars, AMD comes out on top just about every time. I have yet to have an AMD CPU fail on me, and I've abused quite a few, with overclocking and such. My personal experience is that they are rugged, and dependable, even when pushed well beyond their stated capacity. As always, YMMV.

With your stated $500.00 budget, you could build an 8 core AMD powered unit with at least 16 GB DDR3-1600 RAM, if that's what you are aiming for. That would be MB, CPU, RAM, PSU, a reasonable quality graphics card, and possibly some peripherals; basically the core components of a very nice modern computer, with some extras. You already have an SSD and other reusable parts, and a case. If your graphics card fits a PCIe slot, which any modern MB would have, then it should be good to go also, leaving that part of the budget free for something else.

Every MB I've purchased since 2003 has had on board RAID capacity, though I really haven't felt the need to use it as such. The board I had for my 2003 personal build had both IDE and SATA RAID available and on board controllers for 12 hard drives; 8 IDE and 4 SATA. I ran it with 5 IDE hard drives, and two SATA, but with the RAID set in a JBOD configuration. I'd still be using that MB, at least as a secondary unit, but the video card fried, and took the graphics slot with it. It was my first 64 bit system, and I really liked that board, but by the time it died I couldn't find another like it as a replacement.

Unless your PSU is already one with a 24 pin MB connector and has an additional 4 + 4 or 8 pin 12 volt connector, you will probably need a new one. I know that sucks, but I ran into that problem a couple of rebuilds back, where I couldn't reuse a perfectly good PSU because it had all the wrong connectors for the new MB, and no SATA connectors available, except as adapters, which would have made the installation rather ugly and cluttered looking. There are modular units available that have many different cable connection combinations that plug into the main unit individually, so you only use the ones you need, and only as many as you need, so you don't have a lot of excess wiring cluttering up your case. I've been using those exclusively for any PSU replacements, or new builds, since 2005.

I too have used both Intel and AMD CPUs, but the last Intel was a Pentium MMX 200. To upgrade that at all, with Intel, would have taken a new MB with a different CPU socket, and different RAM type.  Instead I dropped an AMD K6 III 450, into the same MB, and overclocked it to 550, with 384 MB pc133 RAM, giving new life to the unit for another 4 years. It bench marked as the equivalent of an Intel 900 at the time. Each new build, or rebuild, since then has been AMD based, and I've never been disappointed.

I favor discrete graphics cards over on board GPUs just because I can choose the quality of the individual card, and tend to stay with nVidia, because they historically have offered the best Linux support. I liked the quality of the ATI cards I've had, but the Linux driver support dwindled there for a while, so I switched to nVidia based cards, back in 2003, or thereabouts. The ATI support has improved lately, but I'm not up to date on the ATI numbering system, with regards to comparing video quality against a specific nVidia card.

I know all this is kind of general, but it's a bit hard to get more specific, not being you, and knowing what it is, exactly, that you really want from your new build. I hope it's of some help.  ;D
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Offline zolar1

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 02:56:08 PM »
I too hate onboard video cards with their shared memory. And most times you can't turn them off in BIOS.

On the links I posted, would those items give me a significant performance boot over my AMD 64 4200+ dual core?

I know the memory would make a huge difference but Linux doesn't use much memory.

It IS a terrible CPU hog though.

My current rig does work OK, but it is feeling it's age.

I could upgrade my video card for a little more boost, but not that much for the money. I like mine because it uses no fan - it just has a big heat sink.


So, do I go with the links I posted or should I choose an AMD with a different MOBO?

I don't need the fastest out there but the 2nd fastest would be preferable. At least it won't show it's age for a few years.


I still need to know if a single 8gb memory module is faster than two 4gb in dual channel.

I don't want to scrimp on good quality memory. The DDR3 (12800) it seems is the fastest out there so far.


Online Old-Polack

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 04:33:02 PM »
I too hate onboard video cards with their shared memory. And most times you can't turn them off in BIOS.

On the links I posted, would those items give me a significant performance boot over my AMD 64 4200+ dual core?

Probably. I went from an AMD 64 5200+ dual core to a four core AMD FX 4100 Zambezi 3.6GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) and the difference was very noticeable; on the order of serious WOW factor, because it was much greater than I had anticipated. I also went from 4 GB RAM to 16 GB, so don't know how much of the WOW is attributable to which part of that combination. I can only say, I was seriously impressed with the complete package. I don't know what the local price is, where you are, but I just purchase another AMD FX 4100 for my friend for under $100.00, and Newegg has the 6 core AMD FX-6200 Zambezi 3.8GHz (4.1GHz Turbo) listed at $159.99, with a $20.00 discount to $139.99 as a weekend special, just to give an Idea of the price difference between AMD and Intel.

Quote
I know the memory would make a huge difference but Linux doesn't use much memory.

It IS a terrible CPU hog though.

I'm currently running jobs on two VMs, as well as a number of apps on the host machine, and get this from top;

Cpu(s):  3.3%us,  0.8%sy,  0.2%ni, 95.7%id,  0.0%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st

... which doesn't seem like much of a hog to me.

Quote
My current rig does work OK, but it is feeling it's age.

I could upgrade my video card for a little more boost, but not that much for the money. I like mine because it uses no fan - it just has a big heat sink.


So, do I go with the links I posted or should I choose an AMD with a different MOBO?

Only you can decide that. You would have to determine what the actual price and availability of each is, in your location. If you can find working examples of each to compare performance side by side, that would be very helpful too.

Quote
I don't need the fastest out there but the 2nd fastest would be preferable. At least it won't show it's age for a few years.


I still need to know if a single 8gb memory module is faster than two 4gb in dual channel.

I don't want to scrimp on good quality memory. The DDR3 (12800) it seems is the fastest out there so far.



DDR3 1600  and  DDR3 (PC3 12800) are two different designations for the same memory. Usually the  listing is  DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) when seen on the internet, to avoid confusion

Just FYI as to RAM speed, I see a current listing for G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1866 (PC3 14900), for $47.99.

I doubt there would be much difference in speed with a single chip rather than a pair having the same capacity. The pair might actually have the speed edge, if there is one. The real question would be price and whether you would ever consider having 32 GB RAM in a 4 slot board. I doubted I would, when I built this rig and purchase two 8 GB dual channel kits for $29,99 each, which gave me four 4 GB sticks. At the time there were few 8 GB sticks available, and the price for them was ridiculous.

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Offline zolar1

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 05:03:58 PM »
I have seen the DDR3 with varying numbers. Like 10200 or similar, 12800, etc.

On my box I seem to have 100% CPU usage regularly.

I did notice that for the past few months my update notifier keeps saying do not upgrade.
I'm not sure why.

I like PCLOS but have been thinking about going to Mint because of all the extra software available.

PCLOS is still 32 bit too. Mint you can get either way.

If I have a CPU with multiple cores I expect every one of the cores to share equally in the load, not max out one then go onto the next. That would be pointless.

If I run any VM I will have XP on it since the memory will exceed the 4gb limit for XP.

I would also set up my two SSD drives in a RAID 1 via on board hardware settings so as not to have linux do it. I don't want to have to configure anything. Just plug and play.

I am hoping that the new generation of SSD's have on board TRIM support. Maybe buy one of those.

I pretty much want double my existing speed. At least the computer would be good for a few years yet.

Offline Just17

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 05:50:43 PM »
Quote
If I have a CPU with multiple cores I expect every one of the cores to share equally in the load, not max out one then go onto the next. That would be pointless.

If you run an app that can only use one thread and it loads a single core there is not much you can do about it ........  except find out what is causing it ......  IIUC ....

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Offline zolar1

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 06:42:30 PM »
Quote
If I have a CPU with multiple cores I expect every one of the cores to share equally in the load, not max out one then go onto the next. That would be pointless.

If you run an app that can only use one thread and it loads a single core there is not much you can do about it ........  except find out what is causing it ......  IIUC ....



In XP Pro, you can select which CPU you want to use. Can this be done with Linux?

15 apps on one core and the other 3 cores are unused isn't very efficient

Offline Just17

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 06:52:02 PM »
Quote
If I have a CPU with multiple cores I expect every one of the cores to share equally in the load, not max out one then go onto the next. That would be pointless.

If you run an app that can only use one thread and it loads a single core there is not much you can do about it ........  except find out what is causing it ......  IIUC ....



In XP Pro, you can select which CPU you want to use. Can this be done with Linux?

15 apps on one core and the other 3 cores are unused isn't very efficient

You seem to miss the point .......  if you run four apps, one on each core, and one of those apps uses the full resources of its core while the other three are lightweight, you get one core maxed out and the other three little used.

What do you think could be done about it?

MLUs rule the roost!

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Offline gseaman

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Re: Can't decide - can you help?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 07:32:58 PM »
As far as I know, there are not many heavyweight apps that are single threaded, but even if they were, kde and X11 would take additional threads. The cpu scheduler that you use could make a difference here, but in general Linux is excellent at balancing threads on multicore cpu's.

Galen