Install Without Grub?

[NinerSevenTango]

I've got a multi-boot machine all set up the way I want it. 

I'd like to install the latest KDE PCLOS over an earlier version.  Previous adventures have made me a little wary (OK, really really paranoid) about whether the install routine will automatically, silently bork my grub without asking me first. 

Is it safe to launch the installer from the LiveCD?  I want to maintain total control over my hard-won grub config, and I don't want the installer to do ANYTHING to my grub or mbr without asking first.

Anyone here know whether I can do this?

Thanks,

--97T--

[Old-Polack]

I've got a multi-boot machine all set up the way I want it. 

I'd like to install the latest KDE PCLOS over an earlier version.  Previous adventures have made me a little wary (OK, really really paranoid) about whether the install routine will automatically, silently bork my grub without asking me first. 

Is it safe to launch the installer from the LiveCD?  I want to maintain total control over my hard-won grub config, and I don't want the installer to do ANYTHING to my grub or mbr without asking first.

Anyone here know whether I can do this?

Thanks,

--97T--

You have to install grub somewhere, before the initrd image for the kernel can be created. If you already have grub installed to the MBR from another installation, and you want to keep that as the "master" grub, install the new grub to the new / partition. From there, you can either chainload the new installation, with a chainloader stanza, or copy the first stanza of the new /boot/grub/menu.lst to the menu.lst of the "master" grub, to boot directly from the first boot menu.

[NinerSevenTango]

Thanks, OP, that's about what I thought.  As long as it gives me the option to put grub in a harmless spot, I'm OK.  You might guess I've had installs blow away my setups before, so that's why I asked.

This is my Dad's computer.  I built it for him with PCLOS 2009, just before the last 'big update'.   It boots XP, Vista, PCLOS, and Puppy.  So my strategy for dealing with the KDE upgrade from hell was just to not even tell him about the update facility.  Now that I've come the 1,000 miles to visit, he wants to be able to print from PCLOS.  Which means, to  make a loooong story short, update the whole OS.

By the way, please remember, you promised to PM me if you ever come near the Detroit area.  My offer is still good--dinner on me at the Polish Village Cafe in Hamtramck.  We visited there last week, it's a treasure.

--97T--

Edit:  I'm back again.  Booted from the LiveCD.  At the install point where it give the choice of bootloaders.  So, I can tell it to install grub to /dev/sda7, for instance.  But I get this creepy feeling I've been here before.  How do I know it WILL NOT alter the MBR or blow away my primary grub (in order to get it to point to sda7)? 

Other annoyances: somehow picks up an erroneous address from dhcp for DNS, which has to be manually fixed before it'll go online.  Annoying skin in Firefox, not obvious how to make it familiar for my Dad. Root terminal picked from menu opens and closes immediately.

[Was_Just19]

Edit:  I'm back again.  Booted from the LiveCD.  At the install point where it give the choice of bootloaders.  So, I can tell it to install grub to /dev/sda7, for instance.  But I get this creepy feeling I've been here before.  How do I know it WILL NOT alter the MBR or blow away my primary grub (in order to get it to point to sda7)?

It has never done so for me .....  but I suppose it is always possible if not probable.

In any case, Grub is very easily reinstalled from wherever you wish .....  a few simple commands in a terminal or by using one of the available GUI apps.

Just because Grub gets changed does not mean there is anything the matter with the OS install.
Grub can be installed to the MBR from any partition you specify at any time.

There are lots of threads and explanations in the forum on the subject.

regards.

[Old-Polack]

Thanks, OP, that's about what I thought.  As long as it gives me the option to put grub in a harmless spot, I'm OK.  You might guess I've had installs blow away my setups before, so that's why I asked.

This is my Dad's computer.  I built it for him with PCLOS 2009, just before the last 'big update'.   It boots XP, Vista, PCLOS, and Puppy.  So my strategy for dealing with the KDE upgrade from hell was just to not even tell him about the update facility.  Now that I've come the 1,000 miles to visit, he wants to be able to print from PCLOS.  Which means, to  make a loooong story short, update the whole OS.

By the way, please remember, you promised to PM me if you ever come near the Detroit area.  My offer is still good--dinner on me at the Polish Village Cafe in Hamtramck.  We visited there last week, it's a treasure.

--97T--

Edit:  I'm back again.  Booted from the LiveCD.  At the install point where it give the choice of bootloaders.  So, I can tell it to install grub to /dev/sda7, for instance.  But I get this creepy feeling I've been here before.  How do I know it WILL NOT alter the MBR or blow away my primary grub (in order to get it to point to sda7)?  

Other annoyances: somehow picks up an erroneous address from dhcp for DNS, which has to be manually fixed before it'll go online.  Annoying skin in Firefox, not obvious how to make it familiar for my Dad. Root terminal picked from menu opens and closes immediately.

If you choose where grub will be installed, that is where it will go. I have no idea anymore how many installations I've done with grub, but I've never had one go where I didn't tell it to go. Even if it happened, getting the proper grub to be master again is a very simple process, so it's the very least of my worries during an installation.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,62786.msg508062.html#msg508062

Even with DHCP determining your local IP address, you can choose not to have DHCP determine your DNS server when you create your connection, and supply the DNS servers of your choice.

[NinerSevenTango]

Thanks guys.

I went ahead and installed, telling it to install grub to the partition that gets mounted as '/' which is sda7.

The stanza from the menu.lst in sda7 /boot/grub  turns out to be almost identical to the one that was in the menu.lst that actually gets used.  I copied into the menu.lst that gets used.

It reads,

kernel (hd0,6)/boot/vmlinuz BOOT_IMAGE=linux root=UUID=2062a7ea-4faa-432e-bb12-ae6ecf9b9ef2  resume=UUID=7ef5b44c-387e-41d9-bb33-fc1a4f78a4f1 splash=silent vga=788

initrd (hd0,6)/boot/initrd.img

Only problem is, it won't boot.  It returns error 2 bad directory or file type (or so).  Those UUIDS are the same as they were with PCLOS 2009.  The path to hd0,6/boot/initrd.img looks OK, that is actually a link to initrd-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs.img.  Which I don't know what that is, but it is there in /boot.

Thanks for your helpful replies.

Edit: Google tells me;

# 10 : "Bad file or directory type"

This error is returned if a file requested is not a regular file, but something like a symbolic link, directory, or FIFO.

Well, the target IS a symbolic link.  Hmmmmm......

--97T--

[Old-Polack]

Thanks guys.

I went ahead and installed, telling it to install grub to the partition that gets mounted as '/' which is sda7.

The stanza from the menu.lst in sda7 /boot/grub  turns out to be almost identical to the one that was in the menu.lst that actually gets used.  I copied into the menu.lst that gets used.

It reads,

kernel (hd0,6)/boot/vmlinuz BOOT_IMAGE=linux root=UUID=2062a7ea-4faa-432e-bb12-ae6ecf9b9ef2  resume=UUID=7ef5b44c-387e-41d9-bb33-fc1a4f78a4f1 splash=silent vga=788

initrd (hd0,6)/boot/initrd.img

Only problem is, it won't boot.  It returns error 2 bad directory or file type (or so).  Those UUIDS are the same as they were with PCLOS 2009.  The path to hd0,6/boot/initrd.img looks OK, that is actually a link to initrd-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs.img.  Which I don't know what that is, but it is there in /boot.

Thanks for your helpful replies.

Edit: Google tells me;

# 10 : "Bad file or directory type"

This error is returned if a file requested is not a regular file, but something like a symbolic link, directory, or FIFO.

Well, the target IS a symbolic link.  Hmmmmm......

--97T--

That link is correct, and vmlinuz should also be a link, to vmlinuz-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs.

Vmlinuz is a link to the currently booting kernel, and initrd.img should be a corresponding link to the initial ramdisk image that the kernel uses to establish a temporary, in memory, / directory, to use until the on hard drive / partition is available to use.

Check, from the liveCD that both links point to their correct files in /boot. Log into the liveCD as root, open a terminal, and enter the following commands.

[root@localhost ~]# mount /dev/sda7 /mnt/sda7              <Enter>

[root@localhost ~]# ls -l /mnt/sda7/boot               <Enter>

Post the results of the second command. Use copy/paste, and include the prompt, the command, and the results, so we see exactly what you see.

[NinerSevenTango]

Code:

[root@localhost root]# mount /dev/sda7 /mnt/sda7
mount: mount point /mnt/sda7 does not exist

Hmmmmm .........................

Code:

[root@localhost root]# pwd
/union/root
[root@localhost root]# cd /
[root@localhost /]# pwd
/
[root@localhost /]# ls
bin@   changes/  etc@   initrd/  media/           null@  proc/  sbin@  sys/  union/  var@
boot@  dev/      home@  lib@     Module.symvers@  opt@   root@  swap@  tmp/  usr@

 /mnt doesn't exist, maybe because it's running off the live cd?

Assuming you want to see what's at that location, I found out how it gets mounted from the LiveCD,

Code:

[root@localhost /]# cd /media/PCLinuxOS_Root
[root@localhost PCLinuxOS_Root]# ls
bin/   dev/  halt   lib/         media/  Module.symvers  opt/   root/  swap/  tmp/  var/
boot/  etc/  home/  lost+found/  mnt/    null            proc/  sbin/  sys/   usr/
[root@localhost PCLinuxOS_Root]# cd boot
[root@localhost boot]# pwd
/media/PCLinuxOS_Root/boot
[root@localhost boot]# ls -l
total 10788
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root root     440 2010-04-06 11:28 boot.backup.sda
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      26 2010-11-20 13:53 config -> config-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs                     
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  112837 2010-10-21 22:48 config-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  502784 2010-04-07 18:54 gfxmenu*
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root    4096 2010-11-20 14:04 grub/
-rw------- 1 root root 6646374 2010-11-20 14:04 initrd-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs.img
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      30 2010-11-20 13:53 initrd.img -> initrd-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs.img
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      34 2010-11-20 13:57 kernel.h -> /boot/kernel.h-2.6.33.5-pclos1.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root    1493 2010-06-07 04:37 kernel.h-2.6.33.5-pclos1.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  254766 2006-11-05 23:23 message-graphic
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      30 2010-11-20 13:53 System.map -> System.map-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1410936 2010-10-21 22:48 System.map-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root root     256 2010-11-20 14:04 us.klt
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      27 2010-11-20 13:53 vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2059312 2010-10-21 22:48 vmlinuz-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
[root@localhost boot]#

Thanks,

--97T--

[NinerSevenTango]

Gotta fly back in the morning ....

Thanks for trying, fellas.

--97T--

[Old-Polack]

Code:

[root@localhost root]# mount /dev/sda7 /mnt/sda7
mount: mount point /mnt/sda7 does not exist

Hmmmmm .........................

Code:

[root@localhost root]# pwd
/union/root
[root@localhost root]# cd /
[root@localhost /]# pwd
/
[root@localhost /]# ls
bin@   changes/  etc@   initrd/  media/           null@  proc/  sbin@  sys/  union/  var@
boot@  dev/      home@  lib@     Module.symvers@  opt@   root@  swap@  tmp/  usr@

 /mnt doesn't exist, maybe because it's running off the live cd?

Assuming you want to see what's at that location, I found out how it gets mounted from the LiveCD,

Code:

[root@localhost /]# cd /media/PCLinuxOS_Root
[root@localhost PCLinuxOS_Root]# ls
bin/   dev/  halt   lib/         media/  Module.symvers  opt/   root/  swap/  tmp/  var/
boot/  etc/  home/  lost+found/  mnt/    null            proc/  sbin/  sys/   usr/
[root@localhost PCLinuxOS_Root]# cd boot
[root@localhost boot]# pwd
/media/PCLinuxOS_Root/boot
[root@localhost boot]# ls -l
total 10788
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root root     440 2010-04-06 11:28 boot.backup.sda
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      26 2010-11-20 13:53 config -> config-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs                     
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  112837 2010-10-21 22:48 config-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  502784 2010-04-07 18:54 gfxmenu*
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root    4096 2010-11-20 14:04 grub/
-rw------- 1 root root 6646374 2010-11-20 14:04 initrd-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs.img
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      30 2010-11-20 13:53 initrd.img -> initrd-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs.img
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      34 2010-11-20 13:57 kernel.h -> /boot/kernel.h-2.6.33.5-pclos1.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root    1493 2010-06-07 04:37 kernel.h-2.6.33.5-pclos1.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  254766 2006-11-05 23:23 message-graphic
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      30 2010-11-20 13:53 System.map -> System.map-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1410936 2010-10-21 22:48 System.map-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rw-rw-r-- 1 root root     256 2010-11-20 14:04 us.klt
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      27 2010-11-20 13:53 vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2059312 2010-10-21 22:48 vmlinuz-2.6.33.7-pclos6.bfs
[root@localhost boot]#

Thanks,

--97T--

Wow! The last liveCD I used to do this automatically mounted all the existing partitions on /mnt/sda1, /mnt/sda2 etc. on bootup. To avoid the confusion there, (I have 40+ partitions) I usually start serious troubleshooting from the live CD with something like;

[root@localhost ~]# mkdir /here                <Enter>

[root@localhost ~]# mount /dev/sda7 /here           <Enter>

[root@localhost ~]# ls -l /here/boot               <Enter>

In an effort to save you one step, I tried to go with the defaults, as I last knew them, only to see they have changed, so I caused you more trouble than if I had gone with my regular routine. Sorry about that.

Anyway, you got the information being sought. Both links seem to be in place and correct, including the permissions.

The obvious question now is who's grub is in the MBR, as master, and is it legacy grub or grub2? Also, how many drives are in the computer?

[NinerSevenTango]

Thanks, O-P, I've flown back to Detroit, but I'm going to visit again in a month or so.  So I'd like to get them going when I get back there.  I do have a clone computer here that I can work on if need be.  

So, anyway I was able to md /media/sda7 and them mount /dev/sda7 /media/sda7.  Then the ls -l came back with the same results as above.  So if you were wondering whether I was aiming at the wrong partition, that should settle that concern.

There is one hd in the machine, plus a cd and a card reader.

The grub is grub4dos.  I don't know how to tell if it's old or new.  I built the machine about 1-1/2 years ago.  I used the special grub4dos setup in Vista Hide-N-Seek available from the Neosmart forums.  (Why? Because it hides the Vista partition when Xp is booted so XP won't delete the restore points which it thinks are corrupted.  It unhides it whenever anything else is booted.  And it handles all the chainloading real nice.)

Since you asked about which grub version, I'm guessing there is a potential problem there?  Is there a way to tell the installer to use the old version?  I really don't want to upset the booting scheme on that machine.  What was wrong with grub 1 anyway?

Thanks again,

--97T--

Edit: Nevermind the grub questions, I'm reading up on it now.

Edit 2: On reading up on Grub 2, I don't think either the original nor the new one is Grub 2.   According to the documentation, Grub 2 doesn't even use a menu.lst.

[Old-Polack]

Thanks, O-P, I've flown back to Detroit, but I'm going to visit again in a month or so.  So I'd like to get them going when I get back there.  I do have a clone computer here that I can work on if need be. 

So, anyway I was able to md /media/sda7 and them mount /dev/sda7 /media/sda7.  Then the ls -l came back with the same results as above.  So if you were wondering whether I was aiming at the wrong partition, that should settle that concern.

There is one hd in the machine, plus a cd and a card reader.

The grub is grub4dos.  I don't know how to tell if it's old or new.  I built the machine about 1-1/2 years ago.  I used the special grub4dos setup in Vista Hide-N-Seek available from the Neosmart forums.  (Why? Because it hides the Vista partition when Xp is booted so XP won't delete the restore points which it thinks are corrupted.  It unhides it whenever anything else is booted.  And it handles all the chainloading real nice.)

Since you asked about which grub version, I'm guessing there is a potential problem there?  Is there a way to tell the installer to use the old version?  I really don't want to upset the booting scheme on that machine.  What was wrong with grub 1 anyway?

Thanks again,

--97T--

Nothing is wrong with grub 1. The problems come when trying to use a mix of legacy grub and grub2, as grub2 counts partitions in a different manner than legacy grub. I've never messed with grub4dos, so know nothing about whether there are conflicts with it and the regular legacy grub. Unless there is a corruption in either one of the kernel/initrd files, they should just work with legacy grub. I was looking for possible obvious conflicts, like the grub/grub2 partition naming differences, hoping for a quick fix.

[NinerSevenTango]

Well maybe it was a bad burn on the LiveCD.

It was acting very strange with that DNS business, and other weirdness.

I'll download again, and this time I'll double check the md5sum.

Then I'll try installing it on the clone machine here.

Thanks a bunch!

--97T--